In late January 2001, a prospective Montgomery buyer asked the listserv group to offer opinions as to which Montgomery a new owner should buy. It was not the first time the question has been posed. We created this page out of the 13 email responses to save you an arduous search through the list archives. Responses fell rather neatly into eight categories, used as topic headings, and are ordered by number of responses (combining Space issues.) What I found interesting are the cases made for why one might sail each boat less. Keep in mind:
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Cabin Space Overall Space Deck Space Set-Up - Launch - Retrieval |
Towing & Vehicle Seaworthiness On The Hard Conclusions & Closing Remarks |
I do very little "daysailing". Almost all my time on the water at least spans two days. Therefore I use the cabin almost every time I go sailing. I liked the sitting headroom in the 17 because I figured there would be days when I might be in a harbor or anchorage when the weather was especially foul. Actual sleeping space is maybe a little nicer in the 15 without the compression post as Doug pointed out, but if you aren't sleeping, the headroom in a 17 is a good thing. Also, as Bill pointed out, the 17 would be less cramped (gear+people) if you normally overnight with two. - Tod Mills, "BuscaBrisas", '87 M-17
The M-15 cabin was neat, but just way too small to consider overnighting. Good place to throw sailbags, whisker pole, cooler, toolbag, etc and picnic basket. Perhaps in the summer with a tent over the boom would work for overnighting if the weather cooperated. You'd be okay trailering and launching yourself an M-15, but get your wife on board, or take along another couple for a daysail and space is cramped, especially for overnight. - Fritz Stuneck "Blew Yonder" '74 M-17
For me, alone, my M-15 cabin is fine. With my son (8 y.o.), it's fine. With my wife, it's not fine. She finds it just too small. - Giles Morris "Umiaq" '83 M-15
Anyone who thinks the M15 is not a (reasonably) comfortable cruiser is absolutely wrong. I am 5' 8" and in my mid 50s and not as limber as I once was. My 5' 7" daughter and I have spent many a comfortable night anchored out. On the first Montgomery cruise I went on an M17 skipper had to leave unexpectedly after a few days. I offered his guest a berth in my M15 for a couple of nights and his comments after sleeping two in the M17 for two nights, and the M15 for two nights was that the M15 was more comfortable. The next year I offered a berth to Tod for a couple of nights and he was quite comfortable with the two of us. He checked out the M15 and the M17 and chose the M17 (hmmm-maybe he wasn't so comfortable.) I spent 22 nights on board the M15 the first year I had it (mostly single) and have spent 15 - 20 nights every year in the ensuing 3 yrs.
The down side of the M15 is the fact that it is a smaller boat. To
sleep two in the cabin you have to move most of the gear out to the cockpit
so you have to protect the gear from the dew and possible rain. The seats
are angled slightly from the horizontal and they hold water (true of most
sailboats) and can get the gear wet. The M15 cabin in the rain, with the
hatches closed is awful. I have no extra ventilation and the inside of the
cabin turns to fog in about 5 minutes. My $5 blue poly tarp saves the day
most of the time but is not very elegant. The cockpit comparision between the two is obviously in favor of the M17. The M15 is a might crowded with two people but is comfortable. With three someone will be standing in the cabin. - Doug Kelch "Seas the Day" '84 M-15
I love my M15 but my Admirable thinks the cabin is too cramped for long term overnighting. The difference between the two boats is that one is a minimalist pocket cruiser and the other is a small pocket cruiser... kinda like the difference between backpacking and camping with a car full of gear, but still roughing it. - Joe Kidd "Poco A Poco" '82 M-15
My wife doesn't even care for the M-17 in this regard. With two kids on
board, there's not enough room for her, she always bumps her head, and
then wishes we had a bigger boat. On the M-17, you have to move slow.
Fast movement results in bumps. On the M-15, you have no choice. In
some respects, you bump about less in a M-15 because there's not enough
room to get limbs and heads going fast.
There's another creature-comfort issue. The M-15 potty is much easier
to deal with and use. The M-17 potty is very awkward to use, for both
sitting and standing, especially under way. I can't believe Bob Eeg
hasn't yet fixed this. But the cabin-liner definitely needs a
re-design. If I were buying a new M-17, this is the only thing I'd fix.
(I'd ask for other things too, but those would be customizations.)
I tend to think of the M-15 as a day-sailer. The M-17 as an
overnighter. They're both camping out in in a hard-walled tent.
Neither can be thought of as a home on the water, unlike my friend's
Laguna 26 or your Compac 27. - John Fleming "Star Cross'd" M-17
I think you have to come to a decision as to how many nights you intend to spend on board. One or two nights at a time, and you just have to accept the limitations of an M15. If you want to go off for a week at a time, then the question of ease of life on board begins to be an important factor: i.e., if you have two days of driving rain and it's blowing like stink, the M15 cabin will take care of one person; but two people, and there is no place to move, other than lie down.
As others have said, the M17 gives you sitting head room, and more interior volume: volume goes up by the cube of the dimensions, so another 2 feet of length increase interior volume enormously: but, then you need the larger tow vehicle, etc. For single handed day sailing; one or two nights on board; with basic meals, the M15 does a great job. - Connie Benneck "Leppo" '85 M-15
OVERALL SPACE
The 15 foot Montgomery is cute as a bug's ear, but just too
darn small. It's a great boat for a lot of people. Everyone will be
arguing this point to some extreme end. Here's a good case for
getting on board the two side by side at a show or dealer. By going
to the M-17 you get all the good points, and very few negatives! Try
to get a sail on an M-15 by all means. Chances are that there will be
an M-17 nearby anyway. - Fritz Stuneck "Blew Yonder" '74 M-17
I love my M15 for all the reasons you mentioned, but I'm a singlehander. The only boat my wife might consider for overnighting would need to have "Carnival" on the stern. IMHO, cruising in the M15 just wouldn't be comfortable for two people. You would end up going it alone, or using the boat less and less often. - Bill Riker "Storm Petrel" '82 M-15
I had my wife and 3 year old out on it last year and we all fit nicely. - Bob Olson "Piccolo" '84 M-15
The 15 works well if you don't like staying on boat for long periods of time. I like to get off and explore and I always take my bike with me for alternative things to do. If you think it's too small to sleep in, camp or stay in a motel. - Rich Cottrell "Really" '84 M-15
DECK SPACE
Our main objection to the M-15 (when the decision time came for us) was the foredeck space. There was barely room to turn around. The deck walkspace next to the cabin is too narrow. You will have to walk on the cabin top and go past the mast to get up to the foredeck. (Many boats have been designed in the past without those side walkways. Cal did that with their early 20's, but Cal 25 racer; also Tanzer and others.) - Fritz Stuneck "Blew Yonder" '74 M-17
SET-UP - LAUNCH - RETRIEVAL
I was hoping to find a place to keep the boat on its trailer with the
mast up so that I didn't have to rig it each time anyway. I found a place to do
that and it works well for me, taking quite a lot of the effort out of going sailing.
We haul an M-17 these days with a 97 Jeep Cherokee at 70mph
easily and still get reasonable mileage. Without the sailboat the
Jeep gets 23 avg. With the boat, it drops down some to around
18-19mpg. The reason I mention the Jeep is because it gives good
power, economy and 4WD for launching and there are a million of them
around. The M-15 probably does launch a little easier, and perhaps
even into somewhat shallower water, but they both have to be rigged,
outboard put on the transom, the usual lines, etc. - Fritz Stuneck "Blew Yonder" '74 M-17
The only difference that comes to my mind -- even though I have an M-15
not an M-17 -- would be the added difficulties in launching, docking etc.
due to the added weight of the 17. I launch mine on Puget Sound at
Redondo, WA. And it gets pretty crowded on the weekends. With limited
dock space for launching and retrieving, it's nice to be able to push,
pull and spin the lighter M-15 around when I need to. I would imagine
that the extra 700 or so pounds of the M-17 would make that a lot more
difficult considering that I'm usually by myself when launching. When I'm
ready to retire in about five years, I'll be ready for a slip and an
M-17. Until then, the 15 works for me. - Bob Olson "Piccolo" '84 M-15
The M15 is a great boat. It fits in my garage, tows so easily I almost
forget it's there, and is ok to launch. The car tires are usually in 3 inches
of water to float the M15 off the trailer. I suspect the M17 would be no
worse. - Doug Kelch "Seas the Day" '84 M-15
Well let me put my two cents in. I think the M17 is a bit more of an effort
to launch, but neither will break your back. I am 57 and singlehand my M17
about 95% of the time. Stepping the mast is not a problem at all. I can walk
it up without any problems. even do it 3 or 4 times like at the 2000
Chesapeake Rendezvous (had a problem with the jib halyard.) - John Edwards "Miss T" '83 M-17
The only difficult part of the M-17 to rig is the mast. Other than that, it's the same. My mast seems especially heavy, with all sorts of junk at the masthead, deck and masthead light, lines and wires run internal, and fittings for a spinnaker. I can do it now by myself, but I'm strong, and it's dicey. Some day, when I'm old and have lost some more muscle mass and with a gimpier back, I'll need a gin pole to get it up. Whenever I can, I try to store it with the mast up, at the lake or the marina. I'd imagine the M-15 never has that problem. I could probably raise its mast with one hand while not even paying attention.
The M15 mast doesn't have shroud spreaders. No lines to tangle. No spreaders to snap. At only 750 pounds, it's amazingly easy to retrieve from the launch ramp- even when the wind is up and there's a chop at the ramp. You can launch it in a puddle.
- Rich Cottrell "Really" '84 M-15
The 2 hp Honda only weighs 28 pounds. It's easy to hand carry long distances. I like to interchange it between our 8' raft and the 15. - Rich Cottrell "Really" '84 M-15
TOWING & VEHICLE
I presently own a Chevy S10 with 2.8 liter V6 engine. I've towed my
17 as much as 50 miles with no apparent ill effects, but since my clutch has about
200,000 miles on it I've avoided launching the boat. The place I keep the boat
has both a launch ramp and jib cranes. So far I've only used the jib cranes with
slings. I'm planning on getting another tow vehicle sometime this spring...probably
a recent Chevy Silverado 1500 with a 4.3 liter engine. - Tod Mills, "BuscaBrisas", '87 M-17
The M-17 floats off the trailer very easy (almost instantly because of the shape of
the transom) and you could also use an extender on the trailer if you needed to. It takes us just under 40 min. to launch and set up the M-17, cause we're slow. The rudder is the part that is hard to fool with, ours being the older M-17. It's sort of always in the way, being as big as it is. But the mast goes up with one person or two if you have a helper. Two is always better for that sort of thing, but I've done it myself many times. I have also flown a spinnaker myself on light air days when I was a bit younger; today, probably not. - Fritz Stuneck "Blew Yonder" '74 M-17
The comments about a tow vehicle for a 17 interest me. I towed two
different 17's from Jerry factory in Costa Mesa Ca to Las Vegas, with the
same Toyota PU, with the little 2000R 4 cyl engine and a five speed
trans......There are a few long climbs from sea level to 2800 feet, and I
never really had a problem. I did bend the braces for the bumper hitch once
backing it into my driveway, but I bought two more, pounded straight with a
hammer, and welded, so i doubled, and never had any other problems. I towed
and launched with the little truck. - Larry Barkhuff "Sadhana" '79 M-23
My tow vehicle is a 1.8T VW GTI (my previous tow vehicle was a VR6 powered VW GTI) - no problems on highway, launching, or retrieving. - Connie Benneck "Leppo" '85 M-15
SEAWORTHINESS
BTW, I have no experience with the 15, but am glad I got the 17 when I'm
out in the middle of the Straight and it starts to blow. - Peter Jacobs "Enfin" '89 M-17
I towed the M15 from Reston VA to Hyannis, sailed to Tuckernuck Is (next to Nantucket - 30 nm offshore) in 15 - 18 kts of wind with the 1 - 3kt currents in Nantucket sound and had a great time. The previous year I tried the same trip but the winds were 20kts to 30kts so I didn't attempt the crossing but went out and played in the 8 ft seas for a while with no real difficulty other than the fact that tacking into the wind and waves severely limited progress. The M15 handled superbly. I was initially extremely nerverous but after 1/2 hr and greenies on board my legs stopped shaking so much. I have done a 10 day cruise on the Chesapeake with sunny days, thunderstorms and rainy days and it was all great fun. - Doug Kelch "Seas the Day" '84 M-15
I haven't sailed the M15, but from all reports it will take a lot of wind
and water. The M17 is a better sailor on the wind, the extra weight really
helps going to windward. But the main advantage is more space below. I have
increased girth with age (sad to say) and still have a lot of room to sleep
and carry the far too many things I take with me when I go cruising. - John Edwards "Miss T" '83 M-17
Because the 15 is a fractional rig, you can reef the main and you still don't have too much jib to mainsail ratio at work. You continue to sail well balanced. You can beach the 15 without a hassle. If you run aground, just jump off and push it back into deeper water. - Rich Cottrell "Really" '84 M-15
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As a result, I think I got more sailing in. Doing this also meant that rigging ease
was less important. I still have to rig it on occasion, but not EVERY time I want
to sail. That said, I don't find the mast particularly difficult to set up. I just pin the base and hoist it up with no special rigging. It is easier than my Thistle (because the M17 mast is three or four foot shorter than my Thistle's and about the same section). When I first bought my boat I'll bet I had the mast up and down at least a half-dozen times installing the halyards and shrouds (the previous owner had
removed them for me at my request for shipping the boat from Montana to Ohio). - Tod Mills, "BuscaBrisas", '87 M-17
Here's the deal about rigging and launching. With a M-15 it's small
enough that you don't put much on board, and it's easy to swing over the
gunwales and stash away. With a M-17, you use all that extra storage
space.
(Remember all those aphorisms, work expands to fill available time, and
mess expands to fill available space, etc.) With the boat on the
trailer, it's so higher that it's much more cumbersome to heave stuff
over the sides. So it takes longer to launch a M-17 and it's much more
exercise. Everything does take longer on a M-17. That means, you need
a longer sailing window for the M-17 than the M-15. Which means you
sail less often.
Oh yes, and the outboard is heavier too. With a four-stroke, 4hp model
for the M-17, it's about at the limit of safe liftability (approx 45-50
lbs). It's enough to make me want to learn to scull, and rig the M-17
for sculling. If the Pardeys can, so can I. - John Fleming "Star Cross'd" M-17
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