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31 messages found for  "sheet to tiller" in the body,  follow:

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M_Boats: Lechter's self steering book
M_Boats: Self steering part 2
Re: M_Boats: Self steering part 2
M_Boats: Sheet to tiller part 2
M_Boats: Sheet to tiller steering part 3
M_Boats: Boarding ladder - M15
M_Boats: Where is everybody?
Re: M_Boats: Where is everybody?
Re: M_Boats: Tiller and Bungi cords
Re: M_Boats: Tiller and Bungi cords
Re: M_Boats: Sheet to tiller steering
Re: M_Boats: Questions
Re: M_Boats: slipping extension
RE: M_Boats: slipping extension
Re: M_Boats: slipping extension
Re: M_Boats: Forespar tiller ext/lock
(Continued next column)		 Re: M_Boats: Forespar tiller ext/lock
Re: M_Boats: sheet to tiller steering
RE: M_Boats: Lake Erie Weekend Report
Re: M_Boats: trivia & more (ugh!) self-steering
Re: M_Boats: Permutation with variations
M_Boats: Self Steering
Re: M_Boats: Self Steering
M_Boats: Twin Forestays
M_Boats: Sheet-to-Tiller Steering
M_Boats: Save the Old Archives!
Fw: M_Boats: Sheet-to-Tiller Steering
M_Boats: New old M-17 wind vane
M_Boats: electronic tiller controls
M_Boats: M15 - sculling, sweeping, motor mounts
M_Boats: Sculling...

Message 1 of 31

From: Doug Kelch
Subject: M_Boats: Lechter's self steering book
Date: 03 Feb 1998 20:58:30 -0500
-----------------------------------

This is a very usefull book and is quite appropriate to an M15, M17 or M2=
3.
It's too cold to field test it but the writing exudes confidence and I
believe it.
Summary of John Letcher's book titled "Self-Steering for Sailing Craft".
My primary interest in self steering for an M15 is in sheet to tiller
arrangements which work. With this in mind the only parts of the book of=
interest are the first three chapters ( 72 pages) with chapter 3 on Sheet=
to tiller systems being 36 pages.
Much of John's practical experience comes from sailing a 20 foot cutter u=
p
and down the west coast and a trip from California to Hawaii returning vi=
a
Alaska. This trip covered over 3000 miles under sheet to tiller steering=
only. He graduated to a 25 ft boat and logged 25000 miles using only a
sheet to tiller system. He basically feels that sheet to tiller systems=
will work well on any boat, and due to it's light loads and simple
mechanics, is more reliable than any other method. =
The end of chapter 3 includes a list of common features of all of the she=
et
to tiller systems that he has seen working. What follows is a direct qout=
e
from this section. If there is interest on the Montgomery list I am
willing to expand any particular section. I would also be willing to sen=
d
email with drawings or faxes to interested parties.
"Common Feature
Looking back over all the arrangements for self-steering with for=
e
and aft sail the following common features stand out:
1. Some part of the running rigging is led around, with or withou=
t
mechanical advantage, to pull the helm to windward. The choice is based =
on
finding a line whose pull increases when the yacht luffs and slacks when
she bears away. I have always found a sheet to serve, but I imagine a
downhaul, on outhaul, a vang or a guy, might someday be called into
service.
2. The windward pull is more than the weather helm requires so th=
e
excess is balanced by elastic. Arranging the sheet to pull to windward,
the elastic to leeward, gaurantees that increased weather helm will be
provided when the wind freshens.
3. the elastic should always be positioned so it becomes slack wh=
en
the tiller is centered or a little to the lee side. Sensitivity to wind
strength is then adjusted out by experimenting with elastics of various
stiffness.
If it doesn't work, don't give up; figure out whit it doesn't wor=
k.
This kind of thinking seems always to lead to some idea for an arrangeme=
nt
that will work better."
Thanks,
Doug =
"Seas the Day"
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Message 2 of 31

From: Doug Kelch
Subject: M_Boats: Self steering part 2
Date: 04 Feb 1998 21:54:58 -0500
-----------------------------------

More from Letcher's book
The following is plagerized from his work but is not a direct qoute.
When using elastic to oppose the sheet tension there are really two
variables - stiffness and relaxed length.
example - you can use 1 piece of 3/8" surgical tubing between a cleat and=
the tiller with the relaxed length pulling the tiller 2" to leward. To
double the stiffness you can add a second piece the same length. This
increases stiffness and keeps the relaxed lenght the same. If you double=
the stiffness by streching the elastic the relaxed length will change.
John's favorite elastic material for sheet to tiller steering is surgical=
tubing because of its stress-strain curve. I use surgical tubing to laun=
ch
10lb radio control gliders and a 100ft lenth of surgical tubing will
stretch 500ft and only triple the strain from the inital load from the
first 50 ft. Apparently this is exactly what you need for self steering.=
=
This material is available in increments of 1/16th inch diameter from
surgical supply houses, dive shops ( spear gun ), Hobby shops (slingshots=
and glider launchers). 3/8" is the most usefull size and the black color=
resists sunlight better.
The friction on the sheet between the sail and the tiller must be kept to=
a
minimum so make sure you use large blocks for the size of the sheet.
Basic close reaching set up.
Adjust the sails for optimum performance up wind, cleat off the sheets. =
Use mainsail for the windward pull on the tiller. To do this you can use=
the control line connected to the mainsheet via a rolling hitch. The
connection point on the mainsheet will be one of the adjustments you will=
have to make for the indivtdual boat. In his drawings of his 20' cutter =
he
shows the connection point to be on the section of the mainsheet between
the block on the traveler and the block on the end of the boom. This =
control line is led from the rolling hitch through a block on the windwar=
d
side fo the boat and back to be tied off on the tiller. The surgical
tubing is connected between the leward side of the boat and the tiller in=
opposition to the strain from the control line.
Remember to connect the surgical tubing so that the relaxed lengh=
t
only centers the tiller or pulls slightly to leward. The strain on the
control line is added at the tiller until the boat is balanced and then y=
ou
tie the control to the tiller. Then let go and observe and tune.
Installment 3 of this will cover beam reaching and quartering win=
ds
on the stern. Unless this bores people to tears and I will quit.
Thanks,
Doug
"Seas the Day"
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Message 3 of 31

From: Karen Fell
Subject: Re: M_Boats: Self steering part 2
Date: 05 Feb 1998 20:03:21 -0800
-----------------------------------

Doug Kelch wrote:
>
> More from Letcher's book
> The following is plagerized from his work but is not a direct qoute.
>
> When using elastic to oppose the sheet tension there are really two
> variables - stiffness and relaxed length.
> example - you can use 1 piece of 3/8" surgical tubing between a cleat and
> the tiller with the relaxed length pulling the tiller 2" to leward. To
> double the stiffness you can add a second piece the same length. This
> increases stiffness and keeps the relaxed lenght the same. If you double
> the stiffness by streching the elastic the relaxed length will change.
>
> John's favorite elastic material for sheet to tiller steering is surgical
> tubing because of its stress-strain curve. I use surgical tubing to launch
> 10lb radio control gliders and a 100ft lenth of surgical tubing will
> stretch 500ft and only triple the strain from the inital load from the
> first 50 ft. Apparently this is exactly what you need for self steering.
> This material is available in increments of 1/16th inch diameter from
> surgical supply houses, dive shops ( spear gun ), Hobby shops (slingshots
> and glider launchers). 3/8" is the most usefull size and the black color
> resists sunlight better.
>
> The friction on the sheet between the sail and the tiller must be kept to a
> minimum so make sure you use large blocks for the size of the sheet.
>
> Basic close reaching set up.
>
> Adjust the sails for optimum performance up wind, cleat off the sheets.
> Use mainsail for the windward pull on the tiller. To do this you can use
> the control line connected to the mainsheet via a rolling hitch. The
> connection point on the mainsheet will be one of the adjustments you will
> have to make for the indivtdual boat. In his drawings of his 20' cutter he
> shows the connection point to be on the section of the mainsheet between
> the block on the traveler and the block on the end of the boom. This
> control line is led from the rolling hitch through a block on the windward
> side fo the boat and back to be tied off on the tiller. The surgical
> tubing is connected between the leward side of the boat and the tiller in
> opposition to the strain from the control line.
> Remember to connect the surgical tubing so that the relaxed lenght
> only centers the tiller or pulls slightly to leward. The strain on the
> control line is added at the tiller until the boat is balanced and then you
> tie the control to the tiller. Then let go and observe and tune.
>
> Installment 3 of this will cover beam reaching and quartering winds
> on the stern. Unless this bores people to tears and I will quit.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Doug
> "Seas the Day"Write on and on. I for one am enjoying this very much. Thanks for
spending the time to explain it to us. John M15 #126
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Message 4 of 31

From: Doug Kelch
Subject: M_Boats: Sheet to tiller part 2
Date: 06 Feb 1998 22:25:49 -0500
-----------------------------------

More on John Lechter's sheet to tiller steering.
Correction on close reaching:John did not specify a rolling hitch, his bo=
ok
says "The control line from the tiller passes through a block on the
weather coaming and then is bent to the middle of one part of the mainshe=
et
tackle, so it pulls a bend in it;
Beam Reaching
Mainsheet controlling
The arrangement is exactly the same as close reaching except that a rolli=
ng
hitch is used to connect the control line to the mainsheet tackle close t=
o
a block on the boom. His diagrams show the connection on the mainsheet
section between the exit block on the traveller and the block on the end=
of the boom near the block on the boom. This results in the control line=
having almost all of the boom tension directly on the control line while
the mainsheet section from the boom back to the traveller is loose and
floppy.
Staysail or foestaysail controlling. Tony Skimore sailed a 24ft sloop,
"Mona Sally", single handed from Britain out to British Columbia using a =
30
sq ft storm jib set flying from the stemhead on spinnaker pole lift , wit=
h
the tack 3 ft off the deck. This was inside and in addition to the norma=
l
jib. The weather sheet fro the storm jib was led through blocks siezed to=
the lower shrouds and to the life lines, tied to the tiller and balanced
with shock cord. This arrangement served him well for all points of sail=
=2E
Diagrams( ,bmp files ) for all text is available on request.
Thanks,
Doug Kelch =
"Seas the Day" =
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Message 5 of 31

From: Doug Kelch
Subject: M_Boats: Sheet to tiller steering part 3
Date: 08 Feb 1998 19:50:44 -0500
-----------------------------------

I hope you're not all confused or bored.
Sheet to tiller steering - Broad reach
Jib sheet is the most commonly used sheet for controlling the tiller.
Quotes are from Letcher's book.
"With all sails trimmed properly, the jib sheet tension is
extremely sensitive to the apparent wind direction. If the boat bears aw=
ay
a little, the jib loses drive by stalling and by moving into the wind
shadow of the other sails; also the apparent wind velocity decreases. (=
By
the time the wind is about two points on the quarter, the jib is empty of=
wind and the sheet falls quite slack.) Then the elastic pulls the helm
down to send her back on course. This action is so powerful that in
practice the course steered is very precise even in a considerable seaway=
,
and I am certain that any boat with a jib will steer this way."
The jib sheet is led through a block at it's normal fairlead
position (do not use the fairlead, as friction really affects sheet to
tiller steering) then through a block next to the elastic cleat on the
leward side, accross the cockpit to a block on the windward side and then=
to the tiller.
The principle adjustment here is the elastic stiffness. The best=
adjustment is always with relaxed length near the centered position for t=
he
tiller. Broad reaching generally requires stiffer elastics than the othe=
r
points of sail. If the elastic is too weak wild oscillation can occur.
John recommends making up special gear for sheet to tiller
steering. One recommendation is to make up several elastic configuration=
s.
An eye splice is made with a short rope tail, several rope grommets are
made a sufficient size to go over the tiller and one or more elastics are=
attached. The elastics are attached by leading the elastic through the
splice or gromment and bending the elastic over the rope back to itself
with about a 1 inch overlap. A small line (whipping) is tightly wound
around both overlapping parts of the elastic. Do not attempt to tie knot=
s
in the elastic because it is very slippery material.
John Letcher's book has a lot of material on running downwind wit=
h
twin staysails but I will skip any thing futher.
If any of you try these techniques I would love to hear from you.=
=
Thanks,
Doug
"Seas the Day"
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Message 6 of 31

From: Doug Kelch
Subject: M_Boats: Boarding ladder - M15
Date: 05 Aug 1998 22:12:13 -0400
-----------------------------------

I permanenttly mounted the two step aluminum ladder from West
Marine. I used the "T" nuts and the installation method you referenced
with good success.
I opted for the permanent mount primarily for safety reasons. I
almost always sail alone and love the strong wind and waves. I will sail=
both early and late in the season when hypothermia is a real threat and
there are few other boats around. I have also used sheet to tiller steeri=
ng
frequently. I used a rope ladder with plastic steps for a season and
always kept it tied to a cleat and ready to deploy. As you discovered it=
is difficult to use. Try it fully dressed for foul weather, in 4 - 5 ft
seas, while the boat is sailing itself at 3 kts, and it is nearly
impossible. If you are going to fall overboard Murphy's law will be
involved and you will not have kept the portable aluminum ladder where yo=
u
can reach it from the water and if you use the rope ladder it will be
fouled on something you cannot see from the water.
The "T" nut is also known as a "nut sert" in some circles. It
looks like a tube with the inside threaded like a nut. One end of the tu=
be
has what looks like a flat washer welded to it. The flat washer looks li=
ke
is cut 1/2 through in three places with the cut part bent down parallel t=
o
the tube. These bent down pieces form sharp teeth.
A hole is drilled through the backing plate the size of the T nut tube. T=
he
T nut are then inserted in the hole and when a bolt is run into the T nu=
t
and tightend the teeth bite into the wood and act like a lock washer and =
a
binding agent so that the T nuts do not fall out.
If you recall from the previous instructions you can use wire and=
string to fish the backing plate through the small spaces to the inside o=
f
the transom. I have head at least two stories of small kids or adults
becoming stuck inside the confined spaces of small boats trying to do thi=
s
by hand.
The suggested method is as follows:
Make a single backing plate large enough for all of the holes
required + 1" or more of extra space all around. Make sure the backing
plate will fit inside the transom. Pre drill all the required holes in t=
he
backing plate and install the T nuts making sure the ladder nicely mounts=
to the plate. (Double check this and translate nicely to "precisely
centered". It's mentally much nicer to drill extra holes or wider holes =
in
a backing plate than in the transom.) Use the backing plate as a templat=
e
for the holes in the transom. Permanently mark the orientation of the
backing plate to the ladder mounts so that you don't reverse them, they
holes are never quite symetric. Drill the holes in the transom. Take a
long piece of semi stiff wire, ( used door bell wire) and fish the wire
through a top hole
in the transom until you can reach it inside the boat. Tie strong string=
to the wire and pull the string back through the transom and tie it off s=
o
it won't slip back inside the boat. Inside the boat, take the other end =
of
the string though the matching hole in the backing plate. ( eventually th=
e
string will get cut off and a small piece will drop into the inaccessable=
part of the boat. If you don't want this to happen you can run the string=
through the hole in the backing plate, tie the string to something, like =
a
washer, as a stopper and keep the string long enough to retrieve after i=
t
is cut). Repeat this process with the other top hole in the transom and
the corresponding hole in the backing plate. You can now pull on the
strings from outside the transom and "walk the backing plate into positio=
n.
Attach the lower bolts, pull out or cut the string and attach the lower
bolts.
Thanks,
Doug =
"Seas the Day"
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Message 7 of 31

From: Doug Kelch
Subject: M_Boats: Where is everybody?
Date: 23 Oct 1998 18:53:15 -0400
-----------------------------------

I don't know about the other members but I am contemplating some half bak=
ed
ideas for my M15 improvements for the winter (Christmas).
I only have the original sails from 1984 and the last time I sailed with
another M15 I was left in the dust. He had new sails.
But I would like to try a trip to the Dry Tortugas and need downwind self=
steering for the 60 nm run. If I bought a new jib could I use the old an=
d
new jib as twin staysails and rig sheet to tiller steering?
The positives are it is cheaper than two staysails.
The negatives are the visbility is cut down and the foot of the sails are=
low to the water and might catch a wave and take the mast with it. Is
this feasable?
My motor is also an 1984 Johnson 2 hp and it's a noisy gas hog. I recent=
ly
went to the Annapolis sailboat show and saw Lin and Larry Pardee's world
class cruising boat with no motor. This 30 ft heavy wooden boat only uses=
a
sculling oar. Could I live with this? Has anyone else used a sculling o=
ar
on an M15 or M15?
Any other thoughts out there on these subjects?
Doug
"Seas the Day"
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Message 8 of 31

From: sparsons@canby.com (Steve Parsons)
Subject: Re: M_Boats: Where is everybody?
Date: 23 Oct 1998 22:01:26 -0700
-----------------------------------

Doug,
Are you sure you want a big sweep on your boat?
Steve
>I don't know about the other members but I am contemplating some half baked
>ideas for my M15 improvements for the winter (Christmas).
>
>I only have the original sails from 1984 and the last time I sailed with
>another M15 I was left in the dust. He had new sails.
>
>But I would like to try a trip to the Dry Tortugas and need downwind self
>steering for the 60 nm run. If I bought a new jib could I use the old and
>new jib as twin staysails and rig sheet to tiller steering?
>The positives are it is cheaper than two staysails.
>The negatives are the visbility is cut down and the foot of the sails are
>low to the water and might catch a wave and take the mast with it. Is
>this feasable?
>
>My motor is also an 1984 Johnson 2 hp and it's a noisy gas hog. I recently
>went to the Annapolis sailboat show and saw Lin and Larry Pardee's world
>class cruising boat with no motor. This 30 ft heavy wooden boat only uses a
>sculling oar. Could I live with this? Has anyone else used a sculling oar
>on an M15 or M15?
>
>Any other thoughts out there on these subjects?
>
>Doug
>"Seas the Day"
>
>
>
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Message 9 of 31

From: Richard Lane
Subject: Re: M_Boats: Tiller and Bungi cords
Date: 15 Jul 1999 21:18:21 -0700
-----------------------------------

AirEvacLen@aol.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 7/14/99 20:44:31 US Mountain Standard Time,
> sparsons@canby.com writes:
>
> <<
> >Has anyone attached bungi cords to their tiller to keep it straight or pull
> >it straight if you take your hand off it to adjust something else. >>
>
> Mac
> There was an interesting article in on of my magazines a while back
> about making a "poorman's autopilot"......it consisted of a couple turning
> blocks on the rail with a line run from the boom end through the blocks to a
> cleat on the tiller........a bungee is attached from the weather rail to the
> tiller for tension once the mainsheet is set.........it's really quite a cute
> idea............
>
> Lenny
Back in California I have a very good book by John ? on self steering
techniques (sheet to tiller etc etc). He also wrote several good
articles on "eyeball" navigation methods in CW. There is also a Dutch
book on self steering.
Dick
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Message 10 of 31

From: "Dennis W. Farrell"
Subject: Re: M_Boats: Tiller and Bungi cords
Date: 15 Jul 1999 22:03:48 -0700
-----------------------------------

The book in question is "Self-Steering for Sailing Craft" by John S.
Letcher. It can be found on the used market for $15 or so. There are also
other books on self-steering, both windvane and sheet-to-tiller rigs --
dwf
-----Original Message-----

>AirEvacLen@aol.com wrote:
>>
>> In a message dated 7/14/99 20:44:31 US Mountain Standard Time,
>> sparsons@canby.com writes:
>>
>> <<
>> >Has anyone attached bungi cords to their tiller to keep it straight or
pull
>> >it straight if you take your hand off it to adjust something else. >>
>>
>> Mac
>> There was an interesting article in on of my magazines a while
back
>> about making a "poorman's autopilot"......it consisted of a couple
turning
>> blocks on the rail with a line run from the boom end through the blocks
to a
>> cleat on the tiller........a bungee is attached from the weather rail to
the
>> tiller for tension once the mainsheet is set.........it's really quite a
cute
>> idea............
>>
>> Lenny
>Back in California I have a very good book by John ? on self steering
>techniques (sheet to tiller etc etc). He also wrote several good
>articles on "eyeball" navigation methods in CW. There is also a Dutch
>book on self steering.
>Dick
>
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Message 11 of 31

From: Conbert H Benneck
Subject: Re: M_Boats: Sheet to tiller steering
Date: 17 Jul 1999 14:40:42 -0400
-----------------------------------

Hi gang,
I tried the sheet to tiller steering methods in Letcher's book on our 29'
Tripp-Lentsch, years ago.
As long as the wind is blowing, it works fine. It requires some playing
with the size of the bungee cords (I used surgical tubing, available from
a medical supply house) to properly balance the pulls between your sheet
and the surgical tubing.
I have set up my system departing Watch Hill, RI; tweaked it until it
would hold the desired course, and then let the sheet to tiller system
sail the boat all the way to Block Island, which was about 22 NM away.
The disadvantage of these systems are that they only work when the wind
is blowing and you can sail.
So, since we had many a foggy day with no wind, or a flat calm heading
home from Block Island, I finally got an electric autopilot. That worked
in flat calms and when sailing.
Connie
M-15 #400 LEPPO
Glastonbury, CT

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Message 12 of 31

From: Conbert H Benneck
Subject: Re: M_Boats: Questions
Date: 30 Nov 1999 20:53:06 -0500
-----------------------------------

Giles,
Many, many years ago, while living in Europe, I bought a book on self
steering put out by the British Amateur Yacht Research Society. It had a
number of autopilot possibilities, as well as ideas to solve some of the
problems of the wind vanes (limited input - all you have is 90 degrees of
deflection) These ideas were for wind mill types of devices which could
keep on cranking in corrections as long as the boat was off course.
I built a horizontally pivoted wind vane, which was mounted on a pedestal
on the aft pulpit.
After you set your ship's course, the windvane is rotated on its base so
that it's edge is looking at the apparent wind. The lines from the
windvane are hooked to the tiller via blocks on the cockpit coamings. If
the vessel is on course, the wind vane is vertical.
Now if the ship changes course, one surface or the other of the windvane
will be exposed to the apparent wind and will be pushed over. In being
pushed over, it pulls on one of the lines, which moves the tiller to
correct the course. As the ship come back on course, the wind vane
slowly goes vertical (it is counterbalanced with lead weights) and ship
is back on desired heading.
Because the power input to the tiller is limited to the square foot area
of the windvane and the wind strength, the next step in the development
was the servoed system, when they put a vane in the water. The vane is
rotated by the windvane input, and the vane in the water developes large
forces because of the water pressure, and the speed of the vessel. This
causes the vane in the water to swing to the left or right - and lines
are attached to the vane which lead to the tiller which input the
corrective action. Aries windvanes are examples of this type of
solution. However, this is overkill for an M15, M17, or even your new
large toy.
The system works fine - but you do wind up with a rat's nest of lines
criss-crossing the cockpit - and it holds a course of about plus/minus 5
degrees; depending on wind strength; wind constancy; and wind direction
(if the wind changes direction the windvane will follow, leading you to
the rocks if you are not careful and keep a wary eye on what your
"helper" is doing).
The disadvantage of the wind vane is that it only works when you have
wind. If you have a flat calm and have to motor, your windvane looks
very impressive to land lubbers, but it doesn't do you a bit of good. No
wind: no windvane input: no steering!
That's why I finally went to the Autohelm as an electric autopilot that
works under all conditions. Having enough electrical power on board made
the decision easier.
Dan Diehlman says he has his electric autopilot tied in with his GPS so
that he can put in destination coordinates, and the autopilot takes over
and heads for the destination - and corrects for cross currents, and
tides.
If you plan to sail to Taihiti and your battery power is very limited,
you need a wind vane: if you are just doing day sailing or cruising, then
the electric autopilot is the better choice, because it works when the
wind is blowing and if it is a flat calm and you have to motor for
several hours to get to your destination.
Of course, you can play with sheet to tiller self steering methods. I've
tried them, and they also work very well, but as I said,before, no wind;
no self steering. You're back to square one again!
Connie
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Message 13 of 31

From: Doug Kelch
Subject: Re: M_Boats: slipping extension
Date: 08 Aug 2000 20:16:24 -0400
-----------------------------------

I realize this is the wrong thread but I have John Lecters book on self
steering. The section on sheet to tiller steering is only 25 pages. I
could ship the book to you for copying or something.
The sheet to tiller steering works well on the M15 going up wind but
it is difficult to get set up. It's sensitive to weight placement and
the M15 is quite light. It should work better on the M17
Doug
"Seas the Day"
"htmills@bright.net" wrote:
> I tried repairing the one on my Thistle which had worn,
> but with no luck. It was a few years ago, so I forget what
> all I tried, but I remember one or two of the things I tried
> worked for a few times and then quit working....I ended up
> buying a new one.
>
> Tod
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Message 14 of 31

From: Shawn Boles
Subject: RE: M_Boats: slipping extension
Date: 09 Aug 2000 09:47:18 -0700
-----------------------------------

Doug:
What is full title and publisher of John Lecters book? I would like to get a
copy.
cheers-
Shawn Boles
Grey Mist (M17 #276 1978)
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2000 5:16 PM
I realize this is the wrong thread but I have John Lecters book on self
steering. The section on sheet to tiller steering is only 25 pages. I
could ship the book to you for copying or something.
The sheet to tiller steering works well on the M15 going up wind but
it is difficult to get set up. It's sensitive to weight placement and
the M15 is quite light. It should work better on the M17
Doug
"Seas the Day"
"htmills@bright.net" wrote:
> I tried repairing the one on my Thistle which had worn,
> but with no luck. It was a few years ago, so I forget what
> all I tried, but I remember one or two of the things I tried
> worked for a few times and then quit working....I ended up
> buying a new one.
>
> Tod
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Message 15 of 31

From: Doug Kelch
Subject: Re: M_Boats: slipping extension
Date: 09 Aug 2000 20:47:38 -0400
-----------------------------------

John's book is as follows:
Self-Steering for Sailing Craft by John S. Letcher, Jr.
Published by International Marine Publishing Co. Camden Maine 1974
Library of Congress catalog card # 74-81711
Doug
"Seas the Day"
Shawn Boles wrote:
> Doug:
>
> What is full title and publisher of John Lecters book? I would like to get a
> copy.
>
> cheers-
> Shawn Boles
> Grey Mist (M17 #276 1978)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Doug Kelch [mailto:dkelch@cox.rr.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2000 5:16 PM
> To: montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com
> Subject: Re: M_Boats: slipping extension
>
> I realize this is the wrong thread but I have John Lecters book on self
> steering. The section on sheet to tiller steering is only 25 pages. I
> could ship the book to you for copying or something.
> The sheet to tiller steering works well on the M15 going up wind but
> it is difficult to get set up. It's sensitive to weight placement and
> the M15 is quite light. It should work better on the M17
> Doug
> "Seas the Day"
>
> "htmills@bright.net" wrote:
>
> > I tried repairing the one on my Thistle which had worn,
> > but with no luck. It was a few years ago, so I forget what
> > all I tried, but I remember one or two of the things I tried
> > worked for a few times and then quit working....I ended up
> > buying a new one.
> >
> > Tod
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Message 16 of 31

From: Conbert H Benneck
Subject: Re: M_Boats: Forespar tiller ext/lock
Date: 09 Aug 2000 20:22:22 -0400
-----------------------------------

Tod,
On my 29 footer, I played with sheet to tiller steering, and it works
fine - as long as you have wind. When there is no wind, and you have a
20 NM run back home, then the Autohelm or equivalent becomes necessary.
Sheet to tiller steering is very effective.
It requires a lot of tweaking to get it right, and to then adjust it to
hold course, but then it does so, with admirable reliability. Just
remember, however, that sheet to tiller steering is looking at the
aparent wind. If the wind shifts, the sheet to tiller steering keeps
working - but your course is totally different from the one you set up
originally.
Vigilance is always necessary.
But, as a plug for sheet to tiller steering: after running lines back
and forth all over the cockpit to connect the bend in the genoa sheet to
the tiller, and adjusting my bungee cords so that they had the right
tension, my system (from Letcher's book) held a nice course from Watch
Hill, Rhode Island to the entrance to Block Island harbor - a distance of
about 22 NM. During the trip, I kept an eye open for tugs with barges;
container ships; power boats; flotsom and jetsom; leather back turtles;
and practiced the accordian.
The system works very well if you have the proper wind.
I've also built a horizontal axis wind vane steering system for my old
boat, and it too, worked very well, when there was wind - and that's the
Achilles heel of all wind driven systems. No wind: No steering!
So, finally, I broke down and bought an Autohelm to provide steering when
there was no wind. So with experience in all three types of systems, the
sheet to tiller is the simplest, easiest and cheapest; the wind vane is
a bit more accurate, but complex, mechanically, and you need a stern
pulpit to mount it; but the Autohelm works with or without wind, is
small, and stows easily.
Your choice! Sheet to tiller is trhe cheapest: a couple of pieces of
line; some blocks and some bungee cord; the others are much more
expensive. Either you have to design and build your wind vane system, or
buy one already developed and functioning. Big bucks! For the Autohelm,
or equivalent, see WEST Catalog for prices
With the Forespar tiller lock box, you can put the tiller extension in
the lockbox and then adjust the course extending or contracting the
tiller extension. I'm using this and it works fine. Maybe not to go to
Block Island, but on an M15, it holds course while I raise sail, or furl
sail, and holds a course while I go below to get a beer, a chart, the
binoculars, or a sandwich.
Connie
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
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-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Message 17 of 31

From: Conbert H Benneck
Subject: Re: M_Boats: Forespar tiller ext/lock
Date: 09 Aug 2000 20:22:22 -0400
-----------------------------------

Tod,
On my 29 footer, I played with sheet to tiller steering, and it works
fine - as long as you have wind. When there is no wind, and you have a
20 NM run back home, then the Autohelm or equivalent becomes necessary.
Sheet to tiller steering is very effective.
It requires a lot of tweaking to get it right, and to then adjust it to
hold course, but then it does so, with admirable reliability. Just
remember, however, that sheet to tiller steering is looking at the
aparent wind. If the wind shifts, the sheet to tiller steering keeps
working - but your course is totally different from the one you set up
originally.
Vigilance is always necessary.
But, as a plug for sheet to tiller steering: after running lines back
and forth all over the cockpit to connect the bend in the genoa sheet to
the tiller, and adjusting my bungee cords so that they had the right
tension, my system (from Letcher's book) held a nice course from Watch
Hill, Rhode Island to the entrance to Block Island harbor - a distance of
about 22 NM. During the trip, I kept an eye open for tugs with barges;
container ships; power boats; flotsom and jetsom; leather back turtles;
and practiced the accordian.
The system works very well if you have the proper wind.
I've also built a horizontal axis wind vane steering system for my old
boat, and it too, worked very well, when there was wind - and that's the
Achilles heel of all wind driven systems. No wind: No steering!
So, finally, I broke down and bought an Autohelm to provide steering when
there was no wind. So with experience in all three types of systems, the
sheet to tiller is the simplest, easiest and cheapest; the wind vane is
a bit more accurate, but complex, mechanically, and you need a stern
pulpit to mount it; but the Autohelm works with or without wind, is
small, and stows easily.
Your choice! Sheet to tiller is trhe cheapest: a couple of pieces of
line; some blocks and some bungee cord; the others are much more
expensive. Either you have to design and build your wind vane system, or
buy one already developed and functioning. Big bucks! For the Autohelm,
or equivalent, see WEST Catalog for prices
With the Forespar tiller lock box, you can put the tiller extension in
the lockbox and then adjust the course extending or contracting the
tiller extension. I'm using this and it works fine. Maybe not to go to
Block Island, but on an M15, it holds course while I raise sail, or furl
sail, and holds a course while I go below to get a beer, a chart, the
binoculars, or a sandwich.
Connie
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Message 18 of 31

From: Conbert H Benneck
Subject: Re: M_Boats: sheet to tiller steering
Date: 12 Sep 2000 15:24:51 -0400
-----------------------------------

Howard,
Maybe I left out some details in my discourse on auto pilots.
On my big boat I tried a horizontal axis wind vane (which I built):
Problems: it has to mount on the stern pulpit and the vane has to be
able to be swung around to match the wind directions. A back stay can't
interfer with the movement of the wind vane. The system is complex: you
have to run the lines from the wind vane to the tiller, and by the time
you're through, the cockpit is not conducive to free form sun bathing by
the Admirable.
Advantages: Requires no electric power. Disadvantages: Doesn't work
when there is no wind!
Sheet to tiller steering: same comments as above, but much simpler to
rig since you use a jib or genoa sheet for the force input to control the
course.
Disadvantages: Same as above: No wind; no steering!
That's why I finally went to the Autohelm. It works in a flat calm (when
the motor is running anyway), and hold course when sailing.
For my M15 I just use the Forespar Tiller Extender and it's associated
lock box installed in the seat back of the cockpit.
It holds a course: Can be adjusted if you move around, change the CG of
the boat, and thereby the boat heading.
It's cheap and does the job for going below to get sun glasses; the
sandwich; the binoculars; etc......
Unless you want to cover 20 NM or more, the cheapest solution is the
best! But if you really are going long distance, then an Autohelm, tied
in to your GPS, is probably the best way to go - provided you can supply
the electrical power required.
Connie
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Message 19 of 31

From: Douglas Kelch
Subject: RE: M_Boats: Lake Erie Weekend Report
Date: 18 Sep 2000 09:35:50 -0400 (EDT)
-----------------------------------

Todd,
Thanks for the weekend up date. Keep them coming as I like the way you
write.
Are you actually using sheet to tiller steering or merely using shock cord
to the gunnel to counteract the weather helm?
Thanks
Doug
"Seas the Day"
Todd Wrote:
"I immediately started rigging the sheet-to-tiller steering and it was
working
reasonably well by the time I cleared Marblehead Light."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Message 20 of 31

From: Conbert H Benneck
Subject: Re: M_Boats: trivia & more (ugh!) self-steering
Date: 16 Oct 2000 21:08:16 -0400
-----------------------------------

Tod,
When I played sheet-to-tiller steering games on my 29 footer, I fastened
the lines to the forward end of the tiller - as far from the rudder as I
could comfortably get. Why? Greater input from the small movement of
the sheet: ergo, a small sheet movement gives a small tiller movement, so
the boat holds a better course, without a lot of "S-ing" on the desired
course.
The basic trick is to have the absolute minimum of friction in the
system, so that the smallest change in the genoa/jib sheet tension is
conveyed to the tiller. I used good sized Harken ball bearing blocks on
the genoa sheet track where you pull a "Vee", and from the top of the
"Vee" you attach a line that goes over a block (in my case fastened to
the railing) and thence to the tiller. The other side of the tiller is
balanced out with the pull of a bungee cord - again, the lightest that
will do the job.
If the wind speed increases, then you'll have to go to a heavier bungee
cord as the balancing element on the other side of the tiller.
Since the functioning of this system is directly dependent on the
constancy of the wind speed, you have to allow for the fact that the set
course will change as the wind speed changes. That's where you have to
make small adjustments.
However, I've set mine up and had it hold an accurate course for 25 NM.
So, system works well, except, .....when there is no wind. Then you are
back to hand steering, or going to an Autohelm or some such solution
(which requires a battery).
But, sheet to tiller steering works well.
Have fun.
Connie
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Message 21 of 31

From: Howard A
Subject: Re: M_Boats: Permutation with variations
Date: 29 Oct 2000 21:26:27 -0600
-----------------------------------

> I was out yesterday, and gave Tod's sheet to tiller (stt) system a try. For what it's worth, here is
> my assessment. It works well...sorta.
My setup may be a little different than some. My mainsheet has 4:1 purchase, and it is located at the
midpoint of the boom, on a traveler. I rigged a single block off the windward aft cleat with a short
piece of line tied in a loop. It just slips over the cleat. The tension setup was a 5/16" x 16" bungee
cord (close but not the same as surgical tubing...I didn't have the end clips) off the loo'ard aft
cleat. The line between the mainsheet and bungee was a single piece of 3/16" line from the bungee,
around the cleat on the bottom of the tiller, through the block, to a snatch block on the mainsheet and
then tensioned with a simple tautline hitch, which held fine. With this setup, I could adjust the
tension and steering easily, and you can switch the sides easily if you have to tack.
When I say it worked "sorta"....when everthing was balanced, it held a course well. But getting it
balanced was a quit a trick. I was sailing in wind that varied from just starting to kick up whitecaps
to almost calm enough that the sails would hang. A wierd day. When the wind was light, or point of sail
was to or past a beam reach, with the mainsheet out and somewhat slack, you could pull about 10" of
slack in the mainsheet....even to the point of changing the sail trim, and the bungee wasn't even
stretched. So in that situation any kind of puff of wind would pull the tiller to windward, the boat
would fall off to the counter the heel, and never come back, because the bungee wasn't tensioned enough
to bring the tiller back. In heavy air or close hauled, you could have the same bungee stretched to the
limit, and only be pulling an inch or two of bend in the mainsheet. In that situation, a gust would
still pull the tiller to windward to counter the heel, but the inch or so of bend in the sheet wasn't
enough to counter that much heel, and she would round up. If the wind died, the mainsheet would go
slack, and that much tension on the bungee would pull the tiller over and she would round up.
But when it was all balanced out for the conditions, it held a course really well. I rested my hand on
it some, and when I noticed it drifting off, I would try to "manually" correct the course, over the
protests of the stt rig...only to discover that the wind had shifted, and it was holding a good course,
true to the wind, and was doing it over wind shifts of 20 to 30 degrees (swirling winds around lake
points) and during wind when at times, I noticed the rail was in the water. I have no doubt that in
steady winds, once you get it balanced for the conditions, you could set a course and have her hold it
for hours.
But back to the balance thing. I concluded you would need about 3 different bungees, or degrees of
tension. A small one for light air; something like the one I had for normal wind, and a bigger one for
heavy air. About 3 or 4 inches of bend in the mainsheet seemed about right, over a variety of
conditons. The amount of purchase on my mainsheet may be a variable that will affect this.
I figure we need several more field trips to get this all figured out. I know it's a burden, but I'm
willing the make the sacrifice. :-)
Howard
M17, #278
(Considering "White Wings" for her name. And I tried one of those other "high maintenence" steering
rigs this summer. Mine didn't work at all!)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Message 22 of 31

From: Howard A
Subject: M_Boats: Self Steering
Date: 02 Nov 2001 07:03:43 -0600
-----------------------------------

I've been wondering how small you can go with mechanical self steering
devices and still have them work right. Don't know if they can be put on
our smaller M boats or not. It seems to me that if the boat is tuned and
balanced right, it should work ok as long as the crew doesn't move
around too much. I've found that when motoring, I can lash the tiller
amidships, then move about the boat, and when steering corrections are
needed, just move from one side to the other to heel the boat and change
course. If it works when motoring, it would have the same affect when
sailing. Self steering might be able to correct for that, but as long as
you didn't jump around too much, you should be able to set it and stay
out of the way.
A week or so ago Tod mentioned building some sort of self steering
device for BuscaBrisas. Don't know what he had in mind. The smallest of
commercial versions like the Navik and smaller Fleming are still pretty
large for out boats. I suppose a scaled down version could be made, but
getting one to work right looks to be pretty technical.
So I guess my question is, other than sheet to tiller steering (works
great with wind forward of the beam, but not so hot off the wind), has
anyone ever used an effective self steering device on the M boats?
Howard
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Message 23 of 31

From: Conbert H Benneck
Subject: Re: M_Boats: Self Steering
Date: 07 Nov 2001 14:10:12 -0500
-----------------------------------

Howard,
As I said before, I tried the wind vane approach: works fine as long as
there is wind. No wind; no self steering
Sheet to tiller works equally as well: but same problem as above, which
is why I finally got the electronic Navico autopilot. That works when
the wind blows and in flat calms too, .....but you then need electrical
power to run the autopilot.
Problems, problems! If it weren't for problems to solve our toys
wouldn't be half as much fun as they are!
Connie
________________________________________________________________
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Message 24 of 31

From: (montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com)
Subject: M_Boats: Twin Forestays
Date: Thu Jan 17 12:52:33 2002
-----------------------------------

In a message dated 1/16/02 4:39:10 PM Central Standard Time,
stever@mail.saabnet.com writes:
> Does anyone have twin forestays on a M-15? (or M-17 for that matter?) I
> found a reference in the archives that Howard uses two foresails to run
> downwind, but I do not know if that means two forestays or if the two sails
> are hanked on to the same stay. Is it possible to have one sail in use and
> one hanked on and ready to hoist if the weather changes? You would have to
> deal with one set of sheets being on top of the other. Any other issues
> that I do not envision? I am trying to get roller furling without the big
> bucks or increased set-up/take-down times.
>
>
Most of the references I've found to twin forestays are for the purposes of
running downwind for extended periods of time. Many also involve sheet to
tiller steering. Some larger boats go so far as to install roller furling on
both! The most thorough discussion of these options that I've read is in
Richard Henderson's "Singlehanded Sailing", 2nd edition. I got it for
Christmas and found it a worthy read. One of the options uses a "Y" yoke at
the mast, so that both forestays are evenly tensioned.
In Small Craft Advisor's #13 issue, there's a wonderful interview of Shane
St. Claire. Shane sailed a Capri 18 from North America to Hawaii. He used a
genny for 2000 miles of the trip, sans mainsail. When the wind got light,
he'd set an assymetrical spinnaker and run wing and wing. Terrific article,
btw :)
On my Potter, my working jib (a tiny 23sf) is often set tight enough to slack
the forestay. Perhaps you could set your larger jib in the usual way, and
have a smaller "mini spinnaker" awaiting use, secured to the deck with its
own downhaul. Just a thought.
Fair winds,
Steve Tyree, P-15 #2098 "Amy Ann"
In a message dated 1/16/02 4:39:10 PM Central Standard Time, stever@mail.saabnet.com writes:





Does anyone have twin forestays on a M-15? (or M-17 for that matter?)  I found a reference in the archives that Howard uses two foresails to run downwind, but I do not know if that means two forestays or if the two sails are hanked on to the same stay.  Is it possible to have one sail in use and one hanked on and ready to hoist if the weather changes?  You would have to deal with one set of sheets being on top of the other.  Any other issues that I do not envision?  I am trying to get roller furling without the big bucks or increased set-up/take-down times.







Most of the references I've found to twin forestays are for the purposes of running downwind for extended periods of time.  Many also involve sheet to tiller steering.  Some larger boats go so far as to install roller furling on both!  The most thorough discussion of these options that I've read is in Richard Henderson's "Singlehanded Sailing", 2nd edition.  I got it for Christmas and found it a worthy read.  One of the options uses a "Y" yoke at the mast, so that both forestays are evenly tensioned.



In Small Craft Advisor's #13 issue, there's a wonderful interview of Shane St. Claire.  Shane sailed a Capri 18 from North America to Hawaii.  He used a genny for 2000 miles of the trip, sans mainsail.  When the wind got light, he'd set an assymetrical spinnaker and run wing and wing.  Terrific article, btw :)



On my Potter, my working jib (a tiny 23sf) is often set tight enough to slack the forestay.  Perhaps you could set your larger jib in the usual way, and have a smaller "mini spinnaker" awaiting use, secured to the deck with its own downhaul.  Just a thought.



Fair winds,



Steve Tyree, P-15 #2098 "Amy Ann"

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Message 25 of 31

From: M_Boats (M_Boats)
Subject: M_Boats: Sheet-to-Tiller Steering
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 14:07:29 +0000
-----------------------------------

Message-ID: <20020214140730.ZHHL2951.rwcrmhc53.attbi.com@rwcrwbc55>
Can someone explain to me the theory and practice of so
called ^Sheet to Tiller^ steering?
I've heard it mentioned but have never seen it and am not
sure how it works. Is it a sort of ^poor man's
self-steering mechanism^? Does it really work?
--
Steve McClellan
1981 M15 #152
stevemc35@attbi.com
From montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Thu Feb 14 14:39:12 2002

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Message 26 of 31

From: M_Boats (Doug King)
Subject: M_Boats: Save the Old Archives!
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2002 14:50:44 -0500
-----------------------------------

Message-ID: <4.1.20020216134420.00a05980@mail.msog.org>
--=====================_14183987==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=^us-ascii^
OK, I did. Since MSOG web site fund raiser is coming up (April), I figured I'd
better do SOMETHING to deceive you into thinking I've earned it (you'll know we
have enough donated when I stop doing stuff again.)
Actually, I thought it was a shame to repeat/lose so much of the valuable info
that had been posted in the past (or pasted in the post?). So I built a 15+
megabyte MS-Access database of the 10,000 or so messages posted from January
1998 to November 2001. I re-typed every word myself. Took months. Cost
thousands. Nah, actually the whole thing was pretty easy to do and took a few
hours one evening.
It's a simple text search, but lets you search for three different sets of
words in the message itself, and by date, author, and subject. There's also
some help info below the search form, since the search program isn't as
sophisticated as the big boys' search engines, but then neither am I.
Results are limited to 100 hits; if you exceed that, narrow the search a tad.
I'll work on ^Next 25^ and ^Last 25^ buttons that will remove that 100 message
limit. As with most web pages, you can Select text, Copy, and Paste it into a
document on your own machine to save for future reference.
For instance, Steve, ;) type in ^sheet to tiller^ in the first search field and
you'll get 23 messages for an in-depth discussion that will tell you everything
you want to know about it.
Just go to ^Other Resources^ on the MSOG site and click on ^Search List
Archives^.
The new list server gives access to messages since November 2001, and I'm going
to look into adding those in the future (probably right before next year's
fundraising.)
If you have any suggestions or find any problems, please e-mail me directly.
Also, I added the top menu to each page in the web site, since everyone seemed
to be able to use it (Sorry Tod, but it's time to upgrade your machine.) ;)
Enjoy,
Doug
------------------------------------------
Doug King
M-17 #404 ^Vixen^
Montgomery Sailboats Owners Group Web site: http://msog.org
Email: mailto:msog@msog.org
--=====================_14183987==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset=^us-ascii^

OK, I did. Since MSOG web site fund raiser is coming up
(April), I figured I'd better do SOMETHING to deceive you into thinking
I've earned it (you'll know we have enough donated when I stop doing
stuff again.)



Actually, I thought it was a shame to repeat/lose so much of the
valuable info that had been posted in the past (or pasted in the post?).
So I built a 15+ megabyte MS-Access database of the 10,000 or so messages
posted from January 1998 to November 2001. I re-typed every word myself.
Took months. Cost thousands. Nah, actually the whole thing was pretty
easy to do and took a few hours one evening.



It's a simple text search, but lets you search for three different
sets of words in the message itself, and by date, author, and subject.
There's also some help info below the search form, since the search
program isn't as sophisticated as the big boys' search engines, but then
neither am I.



Results are limited to 100 hits; if you exceed that, narrow the
search a tad. I'll work on "Next 25" and "Last 25"
buttons that will remove that 100 message limit. As with most web pages,
you can Select text, Copy, and Paste it into a document on your own
machine to save for future reference.



For instance, Steve, ;) type in "sheet to tiller" in the
first search field and you'll get 23 messages for an in-depth discussion
that will tell you everything you want to know about it.



Just go to "Other Resources" on the MSOG site and click on
"Search List Archives".



The new list server gives access to messages since November 2001,
and I'm going to look into adding those in the future (probably right
before next year's fundraising.)



If you have any suggestions or find any problems, please e-mail me
directly.



Also, I added the top menu to each page in the web site, since
everyone seemed to be able to use it (Sorry Tod, but it's time to upgrade
your machine.) ;)



Enjoy,



Doug





------------------------------------------

Doug King

M-17 #404 "Vixen"



Montgomery Sailboats Owners Group Web site:
http://msog.org

Email:
mailto:msog@msog.org
--=====================_14183987==_.ALT--
From montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Sat Feb 16 23:33:16 2002

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Message 27 of 31

From: M_Boats (Conbert H Benneck)
Subject: Fw: M_Boats: Sheet-to-Tiller Steering
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 15:50:33 -0500
-----------------------------------

Message-ID: <20020217.155036.-123805.19.chbenneck@juno.com>
Steve,
Sheet to tiller steering works very fine, provided ........ you have
wind! No wind: no steering!
>From close hauled to a close reach I used my jib / genoa sheet as the
signal source. It's a lot easier to show you this with ^talking paper
and a pencil^ but let me try words alone.
I hung a block from my railing near my tiller. The jib / genoa sheet
went through a foot block at the toe rail, up to the railing block and
then back down to a cleat.
Next I took a light line and tied it to the sheet with a sheetbend on the
portion of the sheet between the railing block and the cleat.
You now pull a ^Vee^ in the sheet with the line and tie the line off to
the tiller. The tiller is held in position with a piece of bungee cord
attached to the opposite coaming. Any changes in wind pressure in the
sails will either straighten out the ^Vee^ - pulling the tiller in one
direction: or allow a greater ^Vee^ to be pulled by the bungee cord. So
tiller gets it's signal on how to correct the course.
Course adjustment is made by using a toggle in the bungee cord to change
the tension in the bungee cord.
In simple terms: you are balancing the pull of the bungee cord against
the pull of the jib/genoa sheet.
By playing with the bungee cord tension you set your course, that the
system will hold very nicely - provided the wind direction doesn't
change! Remember, the selfsteering system follows the wind, not the
compass!
I have set mine up leaving Watch Hill, RI for a course to Block Island,
and didn't touch it again until I was off the entrance to Block Island
Harbor - a distance of about 24 NM.
It works!
Connie
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Message 28 of 31

From: chbenneck at juno.com (chbenneck@juno.com)
Subject: M_Boats: New old M-17 wind vane
Date: Sun Oct 12 11:44:19 2003
-----------------------------------

Someone on the list built a wind system for an M17 and reported that it
worked very well.
On my M15 I just trim the boat; put a Forespar Tiller Extension on the
tiller and into the box in the cockpit side, and then play with the
length adjustment so that it will hold the boat on course while I
disappear down into the cabin, or just sit back in the cockpit and let
"Iron Mike" steer.
Sheet to tiller steering also works but gets more complicated. This is a
solution if you are going to be on one course for several hours and want
to hold a course +/- 5 degrees (assuming the wind doesn't change in
velocity)
However for short breaks, the first two solutions are quicker and easier
to set up.
The only problem with the first two is that the boat will change course
if you move about. At least on the M15 it is quite sensitive to changes
in fore and aft trim.
Connie
M15 #400

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Message 29 of 31

From: chbenneck at juno.com (chbenneck@juno.com)
Subject: M_Boats: electronic tiller controls
Date: Sat Oct 25 12:43:14 2003
-----------------------------------

Hi fellow M'ers
I've done the whole routine.
I built a wind vane steering system for my T-L 29, and it worked very
well.
Sheet to tiller steering also works well, though not quite in the same
ranges as the wind vane system.
However, both quit working when there is no wind..................... and
that's the rub!
That's when the electronic - tiller autopilot - earns it's keep.
When you have a three hour trip from A to B, under power, on a flat calm
ocean the electronic auotpilot is the only one that functions.
It took awhile to come to that realization, but that's when I bought and
installed one.
Now, if you have the electronic autopilot do you really need a wind vane?
........and unless you plan to sail around the world, or just want to
play with the concept, the answer is no.
So my ultimate solution was sheet to tiller steering, when I had wind;
and the electronic autopilot for the flat calms.
Power consumption of the autopilot was of no concern: my engine was
running anyway.
Connie

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Message 30 of 31

From: doug_kelch at yahoo.com (Doug Kelch)
Subject: M_Boats: M15 - sculling, sweeping, motor mounts
Date: Mon Nov 3 14:58:31 2003
-----------------------------------

I had a fine weekend overnight in light airs,
beautiful fall foliage and abnormally high
temperatures (80 deg).
The winds were forecast to be light so I took my
longish oar for sculling or sweeping messing about.
But first the motor mount. I was sailing in company
with a Sea Pearl whose motor mount was in fact on the
rudder. It is mounted near the head of the rudder on
a bracket that off-sets the motor to the port side of
the rudder. Since it is off to the side it does not
interfere with the kick up rudder and it is steered
with the normal tiller..
The Sea Pearl 21's gudgeon and pintels are twice the
size of the M15 to handle the strain of the engine so
my conclusion would be that the M15's gudgeons and
pintels are not up to snuff for mounting an engine off
of the rudder.
The extra weight on one side of rudder is difficult to
get used to when heeled or when steering. With the
extra weight in light winds the tiller feeling was
lost.
Sculling the M15 - I have a temporary fixture with an
oar lock I can mount on the transom. The oar I was
using is pretty poor for the application however with
little past success in sculling I was able to get the
M15 up to 1 kt. My guess is if you were actually go
at it you could get closer to 1.6 or even 2 kts for
short periods.
Sweeping - I have a couple of cleats on each coaming
outside of the cockpit for sheet to tiller steering.
I used these to hold both ends of a line with a
rolling hitch around the oar. I used a seat cushion
under the oar to avoid damaging the coaming. The
technique was brute force and I was able to get up to
1.2 kts but the rudder pressure required to continue
in a straight line was severe.
Unless you want to go with a pair of oars the sculling
approach is probably more sustainable if you can
master the technique.
Thanks
Doug Kelch
"Seas the Day"
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Message 31 of 31

From: mazemusic at yahoo.com (Rusty Knorr)
Subject: M_Boats: Sculling...
Date: Mon Nov 3 21:34:35 2003
-----------------------------------

Thanks, Doug and everyone for all the "alternative
sources of power" discussions. I am glad that others
out there are experimenting and sharing that
knowledge. I had a hard time with just a single canoe
paddle, not because the boat wouldn't move but because
she wouldn't track straight. As Doug says, the rudder
pressure for correction is severe. Must be the short
waterline. Now I am more interested in the sculling
oar idea. What kind of oar were you using, Doug?
Thanks, Rusty
--- Doug Kelch wrote:
> I had a fine weekend overnight in light airs,
> beautiful fall foliage and abnormally high
> temperatures (80 deg).
>
> The winds were forecast to be light so I took my
> longish oar for sculling or sweeping messing about.
>
> But first the motor mount. I was sailing in company
> with a Sea Pearl whose motor mount was in fact on
> the
> rudder. It is mounted near the head of the rudder
> on
> a bracket that off-sets the motor to the port side
> of
> the rudder. Since it is off to the side it does not
> interfere with the kick up rudder and it is steered
> with the normal tiller..
>
> The Sea Pearl 21's gudgeon and pintels are twice the
> size of the M15 to handle the strain of the engine
> so
> my conclusion would be that the M15's gudgeons and
> pintels are not up to snuff for mounting an engine
> off
> of the rudder.
>
> The extra weight on one side of rudder is difficult
> to
> get used to when heeled or when steering. With the
> extra weight in light winds the tiller feeling was
> lost.
>
> Sculling the M15 - I have a temporary fixture with
> an
> oar lock I can mount on the transom. The oar I was
> using is pretty poor for the application however
> with
> little past success in sculling I was able to get
> the
> M15 up to 1 kt. My guess is if you were actually go
> at it you could get closer to 1.6 or even 2 kts for
> short periods.
>
> Sweeping - I have a couple of cleats on each coaming
> outside of the cockpit for sheet to tiller
> steering.
> I used these to hold both ends of a line with a
> rolling hitch around the oar. I used a seat cushion
> under the oar to avoid damaging the coaming. The
> technique was brute force and I was able to get up
> to
> 1.2 kts but the rudder pressure required to continue
> in a straight line was severe.
>
> Unless you want to go with a pair of oars the
> sculling
> approach is probably more sustainable if you can
> master the technique.
>
> Thanks
>
> Doug Kelch
> "Seas the Day"
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
> http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/
>
> _______________________________________________
>
http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
=====
"In a power boat you may get there faster,
but in a sailboat you are already there."
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M_Boats: Lechter's self steering book
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M_Boats: Sheet to tiller part 2
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Fw: M_Boats: Sheet-to-Tiller Steering
M_Boats: New old M-17 wind vane
M_Boats: electronic tiller controls
M_Boats: M15 - sculling, sweeping, motor mounts
M_Boats: Sculling...