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Montgomery Sailboats List Archives Search Results

Montgomery Sailboats List Archives Search Results

48 messages found for  "mast rake" in the body,  follow:

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Re: M_Boats: More Porta Potti ?
M_Boats: Tuning the M15
M_Boats: m-15 interior
Re: M_Boats: m-15 interior
Re: M_Boats: Tuning an M15
RE: M_Boats: Standing rigging question
Re: M_Boats: Ely, Minnesota
Re: M_Boats: Ely, Minnesota
M_Boats: upwind performance and raking (was Ely, Minnesota)
M_Boats: (no subject)
M_Boats: M-15 Sails and Mast Rake Question
Re: M_Boats: (no subject)
M_Boats: Quote from Jerry Montgomery
RE: M_Boats: Quote from Jerry Montgomery
Re: M_Boats: Quote from Jerry Montgomery
M_Boats: Hey Gang!!!! Lets ALL relax....
M_Boats: Mast rake
Re: M_Boats: Mast rake
M_Boats: Rigging Tip
Re: M_Boats: Update on refit progress
Re: M_Boats: M-17 Roller Furling Jib/Forestay
M_Boats: weather helm
RE: M_Boats: weather helm
Re: M_Boats: weather helm
(Continued next column)		 Re: M_Boats: SCA Results
RE: M_Boats: weather helm
Re: M_Boats: Mast Rake (and other dumb questions)
M_Boats: Mast rake and racing ratings
Re: M_Boats: Mast Rake (and other dumb questions)
Re: M_Boats: Mast Rake (and other dumb questions)
M_Boats: Lemme knoe...
M_Boats: New Owner: ^Chimpanzee^
M_Boats: New Owner: ^Chimpanzee^
M_Boats: New Owner: ^Chimpanzee^
M_Boats: M17 Performance
M_Boats: rigging tension
M_Boats: (no subject)
M_Boats: Welcome Jeff
M_Boats: Welcome Jeff
M_Boats: (no subject)
M_Boats: tilting up the Honda on the stock mount
RE: M_Boats: tilting up the Honda on the stock mount
M_Boats: Center of Effort?
M_Boats: M17 renovations
Re: M_Boats: M17 renovations
M_Boats: Mast Rake
M_Boats: Mongomery sailboats: the irresistible conversation piece
M_Boats: M17 Rig Tunning

Message 1 of 48

From: jerry montgomery
Subject: Re: M_Boats: More Porta Potti ?
Date: 24 Jul 1998 09:22:50 +0000
-----------------------------------

William B Riker wrote:
>
> Jerry, Thanks for the info on force fitting the Thetford potti. Randy
> Graves says the Thetford 135 fits his #407, probably after you enlarged the
> head base. Depending on the proclivities of my guests, I may just keep
> my "Bucket Pottie", West Marine's toilet seat that fits on a standard 3 or
> 5 gallon bucket. The 3 gallon fits just fine!
>
> Had a great sail over the weekend on Canandaigua Lake (Finger Lakes).
> Saturday was dead, so I rewired the trailer, but Sunday was breezy. I
> did't think the Montgomery would heel far enough to take water over the
> rail, without a sudden gust or unsual wave action. Wrongo! I was able to
> hold her off until she actually scooped up a couple of cupfuls. Good
> thing to know. Keep the mainsheet handy. I also had a chance to practice
> reefing and unreefing.
>
> The M15 sails with almost a neural helm whatever the situation, even
> reefed. Storm Petrel has a bit of lee helm in light breezes and the
> weather helm finally kicks in when she really heels. In steady
> conditions, you can lash the ttiller and sail her by leaning forward or
> back, or moving forward or aft.
>
> Bill Riker, M15, Storm Petrel
Hi Bill
Try raking the mast to pick up a bit of helm, even in light air as long
as you have a little heel. The 15 and 17 both will go faster upwind and
point higher if you ghet he mast rake right. In a drifter, sit to
leeward to get the heel. Do this mast adjustment in stages until you go
too far, then back off.
Jerry
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Message 2 of 48

From: Doug Kelch
Subject: M_Boats: Tuning the M15
Date: 24 Jul 1998 14:06:47 -0400
-----------------------------------

Jerry's guidence to Bill on getting the mast rake just right is the just
the kind of infromation that I have been thinking about posting a thread
for. While on the 1998 Chesapeak Rondevous it was very Abby Gura's M15
#466 pointed higher and sailed faster on all points than "Seas the Day",
M15 #310. My sails are original and Abby's are two years old. Abby had=
the forestay replaced and added a fine adjustment turnbuckle. He had his=
shrouds and forestay strummmmm tight and mine was v e r y l o o s e a =
n
d f l o p p y. I moved my shroud pins down a notch and moved the
attachment point to the forward hole on the chain plate. This resulted i=
n
some improvement but we had little sailing time left to check it out.
Are there other prescribed steps to tuning an M15?
Thanks =
Doug
"Seas the Day"
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Message 3 of 48

From: Doug Kelch
Subject: M_Boats: m-15 interior
Date: 30 Nov 1998 19:47:14 -0500
-----------------------------------

Message text written by Janet
>
i have sat - or rather tried to sit in the cabin a few times to get a sen=
se
of
the space and thought i'd put it out to the list how to make the cabin mo=
re
livable.
my cabin is bare bones - ancient cushions - that's all. all the through
bolts
show presenting an unactractive and some what dangerous situation. has
anyone
put in a headliner? of what material and how?
<n
some cool temps and if you close up the cabin for warmth you get a lot of=
condensation. I would not want this moisture behind any liner for fear o=
f
mildew and oders.
sitting in any position is difficult - no head room and not much to lean
against. except for the obvious idea of some big pillows - has anyone co=
me
up
with other solutions? there is so much storage space that the main cabin=
can
be left quite empty - but i would like it to be more comfortable. any
advice
would be appreciated.
<< I had the luxury of spending 20 nights on my M15 this year and have no=
t
come up with a magic solution. When on multiple nite cruises I pack in t=
wo
small duffles and use them as "big pillows". Some one else on this list
made a board to brace at an angle between the flat part of the cockpit wa=
ll
and the cusion area. This only needs 1 pillow or you can slide a cushion=
up on it and you can read in comfort. I will add this next season. I us=
e
a cheap 7x9' blue tarp to use as an awning/boom tent and spend most of th=
e
time in the cockpit. This doesn't work so well in the rain as the end of=
the cockpit is exposed and the rain runs down the seat. =
what is the permissible rake backwards on the mast? i replaced the lost
turnbuckle on the forestay but was only able to find a larger one. mast
now
leans back 10-15 degrees. is this ok? =
<is
very tireing. My M15 does not have turnbuckles however I offer the
following for reference. With the mast off the boat the swagged fitting f=
or
the shrouds and the forestay end the same distance from the bottom of the=
mast. The swaged fitting for all are attached to the M15 chainplates and
forestay plate? by a 4 1/2 "
u shaped rail with holes for pins. My current settings have the forestay
attached at the second hole in, ( 1/2") and the shrouds in the fourth hol=
e
in (1 1/2 "). The shroud chain plates have two holes and I am currently
using the forward holes. With this set up the boat has an almost neutral=
helm in 8kts, and a light weather helm at 10 kts and up. It should have =
a
little more mast rake. I suggest you start with similar dimensions and
experiment. It's a good excuse to go sailing.
trail rite trailer is an interesting jobbie. boat hangs off it about 1/3=
its
length - is this for ease of launch? i have an auto jack under the rear =
to
keep boat and trailer from popping up at front when i'm fooling around at=
the
rear of the cockpit. =
<< yes this is normal, I make my daughter stand on the front of the
trailer.
<
Doug
"Seas the Day"
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Message 4 of 48

From: sparsons@canby.com (Steve Parsons)
Subject: Re: M_Boats: m-15 interior
Date: 30 Nov 1998 21:41:04 -0800
-----------------------------------

Comments re: trailer balance.
I weigh in at svelte 235#, and do not have problems with my M15 dropping to
the transom.
Steve
M15-159 Sojornen
Post Script: With a minimum of 600 calories per pint of Widmer Hefeweisen,
it's a wonder I'm not at 335.
>Message text written by Janet
>>
>i have sat - or rather tried to sit in the cabin a few times to get a sense
>of
>the space and thought i'd put it out to the list how to make the cabin more
>livable.
>
>my cabin is bare bones - ancient cushions - that's all. all the through
>bolts
>show presenting an unactractive and some what dangerous situation. has
>anyone
>put in a headliner? of what material and how?
><>some cool temps and if you close up the cabin for warmth you get a lot of
>condensation. I would not want this moisture behind any liner for fear of
>mildew and oders.
>
>sitting in any position is difficult - no head room and not much to lean
>against. except for the obvious idea of some big pillows - has anyone come
>up
>with other solutions? there is so much storage space that the main cabin
>can
>be left quite empty - but i would like it to be more comfortable. any
>advice
>would be appreciated.
><< I had the luxury of spending 20 nights on my M15 this year and have not
>come up with a magic solution. When on multiple nite cruises I pack in two
>small duffles and use them as "big pillows". Some one else on this list
>made a board to brace at an angle between the flat part of the cockpit wall
>and the cusion area. This only needs 1 pillow or you can slide a cushion
>up on it and you can read in comfort. I will add this next season. I use
>a cheap 7x9' blue tarp to use as an awning/boom tent and spend most of the
>time in the cockpit. This doesn't work so well in the rain as the end of
>the cockpit is exposed and the rain runs down the seat.
>
>what is the permissible rake backwards on the mast? i replaced the lost
>turnbuckle on the forestay but was only able to find a larger one. mast
>now
>leans back 10-15 degrees. is this ok?
><>very tireing. My M15 does not have turnbuckles however I offer the
>following for reference. With the mast off the boat the swagged fitting for
>the shrouds and the forestay end the same distance from the bottom of the
>mast. The swaged fitting for all are attached to the M15 chainplates and
>forestay plate? by a 4 1/2 "
>u shaped rail with holes for pins. My current settings have the forestay
>attached at the second hole in, ( 1/2") and the shrouds in the fourth hole
>in (1 1/2 "). The shroud chain plates have two holes and I am currently
>using the forward holes. With this set up the boat has an almost neutral
>helm in 8kts, and a light weather helm at 10 kts and up. It should have a
>little more mast rake. I suggest you start with similar dimensions and
>experiment. It's a good excuse to go sailing.
>
>trail rite trailer is an interesting jobbie. boat hangs off it about 1/3
>its
>length - is this for ease of launch? i have an auto jack under the rear to
>keep boat and trailer from popping up at front when i'm fooling around at
>the
>rear of the cockpit.
><< yes this is normal, I make my daughter stand on the front of the
>trailer.
><
>
>Doug
>"Seas the Day"
>
>

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Message 5 of 48

From: jerry montgomery
Subject: Re: M_Boats: Tuning an M15
Date: 10 Dec 1998 20:57:20 +0000
-----------------------------------

Hi Doug
No, No, No!! Leave the 15 rig a little loose. Forestay tension will
come from load on the mainsheet, that way, when you ease the mainsheet
(light air or a reach) the luff of the jib will relax a little and the
sail will become fuller. This is an advantage of a bendy, 3/4 rig. If
you pre-load the standing rigging you won't have this advantage.
The reason that slack rigging worked on the Windmill, and many other
triangle-rigged boats, probably including the 15, is so that on a run or
stalled-out broad reach the mast can flop forward which will make the
boat go faster. On the wind, the forestay will determine the mast rake,
and nearly all well-designed boats will sail better upwind with the mast
raked a fair amount. Notice the "well designed"- some boats will pick up
a heavy helm before the optimum rake is reached. To simplify, as a
generality, boats will sail upwind faster with the rig raked aft, and
they will sail off the wind faster with the rig leaning forward
slightly. If you can dig up an old copy of PERFORMANCE ADVANCES IN SMALL
BOAT RACING by Stuart Walker (1969, W.W. Norton), it will explain this,
and a zillion other interesting things. This book was one of my bibles
about 30 years ago and things haven't changed much. I only raced the
15 a few times (and against pretty lazy fleets) and don't claim to know
the boat that well in terms of speed potential, but I tune boats by
playing around with mast rake until I have a light weatherhelm on the
wind in light air with the boat heeled a little. Sit way forward and on
the lee side. Don't even bother until you get the new sails; it's
impossible to tune a boat right with bagged-out sails because no matter
what you do the boat won't go upwind.
Hope this helps.
Jerry
AirEvacLen@aol.com wrote:
>
> Doug
> Without turnbuckles for adjustment you are at the mercy of the
> Gods........your rigging needs to be tensioned according to the load strength
> of the wire....several good books out there and some good
> videos'............while new sails are nice, a properly tuned boat will
> definetly outperform one which is not....
>
> Lenny
> M-23
> Sea Horse
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Message 6 of 48

From: "Bill Riker"
Subject: RE: M_Boats: Standing rigging question
Date: 19 May 1999 23:25:48 -0400
-----------------------------------

Fran,
Seems to me that the settings right for one boat would be unlikely to be
correct for another. Since the boats are not mass produced, there are
variances in the original equipment. Add the variables of stretch and wear
and the differences grow.
There was some discussion of tuning the rig a few months time ago, and I
believe Jerry even added his authorative voice. My understanding, before
and after the discussion here, is that you should have minimal tension on
the rig at rest, just taut enough to eliminate slop. And there should little
to no mast rake. Mast rake is one of the factors controlling weather/lee
helm, so you can experiment with it by adjusting the forestay and side stay
positions.
Bill Riker
M-15 #184
Storm Petrel
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Message 7 of 48

From: jerry montgomery
Subject: Re: M_Boats: Ely, Minnesota
Date: 21 Apr 2000 00:30:47 +0000
-----------------------------------

Hi John
You're absolutely right if you substitute the word "skeg" for the word
"transom". The transom should be above the waterline and therefore not
involved unless you hang yourself over the transom and stare at it, in
which case your weight might submerge the transom. But the skeg is
really not significant since it hangs down by only about 4" and any
advantage gained by fairing would be something only a racing fanatic
like me would consider.
A 17 with the mast raked properly loads the rudder to the point where it
is an important lifting plane, thus the depth and aspect ratio, which
are extreme compared to your average short, fat cruising boat. Believe
you me, I've taken a lot of static over the years from owners that have
taken off their rudders on rocks, stumps, sea monsters, etc, but the
depth and the rake of the rudder is one of the keys to the boat's
performance. The 17 is really an outstanding boat upwind for its length
and the foils are one of the major reasons.
I started racing the 17 soon after we started building it, and did well
from the start, and when I went to the race in Leach Lake, MN, which at
that time was touted as the largest trailerable boat race in the world,
in the late 70's, I was sailing on a 23 at the invitation of (?) I can't
remember his name, but I can remember his face and that he was a great
guy. There were several 17's in the race and I was greatly disturbed by
the fact that that they all thought that the 17 was a strong, seaworthy
boat, but was a little on the slow side. This was a definate attack on
my ego. I picked out the 17 with the best suit of sails and spent a
couple of hours tuning his mast. The next day (the second day of
racing, of three, I think) he blew away his competition in his class (a
"horizon job"). It's all in the relationship between the sailplan and
the foils. There is probably an appropriate analogy in low- speed
airplanes. If your wing (which bears most of the load) was necessarily
short and of low aspect, for structural or whatever reasons, but the aft
wing (aileron?) could be of high aspect, the designer could probably, to
advantage, distribute the weight so that the plane would fly level when
the tail wing was angled up a little, to keep the plane flying level.
The important thing is that while keeping the plane flying level it
would also contribute to the lift of the plane. Does this make sense to
you, an airplane guy? On a boat, I look at this as "loading up the
rudder", and when things are just right it makes a remarkable difference
in the upwind performance of the boat. Upwind, at a high angle of
incidence, a highly raked mast, so that the leach and the luff of the
sail are close to equal in terms of plus and minus angles, has more
lift. Optimum tuning comes when the properly raked mast creates a light
and controllable weather helm on the rudder, changing the rudder from a
mere controling surface to a lifting surface. Pointing higher and going
faster, as they say.
Jerry
John Fleming wrote:
>
> Tom Woodworth wrote:
> >
> > John (Star Cros'd) I am interested in your theorys of Hydrodynamics as
> > related to hull/rudder relationships. I had no idea the spacing between
> > the transom and rudder would be of any importance. Maybe an article on
> > the new website would be of some value.
>
> You flatter me. More like idle conjectures, without empirical evidence, but
> based on comparative experience.
>
> My original college degree was in Aerospace Engineering, heavy on aeronautics.
> After all, what's a rudder but a symmetric [water]foil immersed in a fluid,
> generating lift from an angle of attack with respect to the free stream flow.
>
> My belief/conjecture/theory is that the (practical) amount of horizontal
> separation between transom and rudder leading edge doesn't change the overall
> drag very much. The water around the rudder above the hull is moving
> vertically and with a small reverse flow, but very very turbulent (at least
> for a M-17, other designs have different characteristics). So the net lift of
> the rudder is close to zero above the hull line.
>
> The gap between the transom and rudder does contribute to drag though, but not
> very much (because the flow is vertical). In airplanes, gaps like that,
> between the wing and the aileron, are carefully faired and sealed to minimize
> drag (because the flow is across the gap).
>
> The horizontal distance of the rudder from the boat's center of effort, does
> determine the size and depth of the rudder. Enough rudder must be generating
> lift forces to counteract the turning torques of the sails (in aero terms, the
> pitching moment of the foil). The farther back the rudder is, the shorter and
> lesser width it needs to be.
>
> Practically, though, the rudder on a M-17 (or any other small boat) will
> always be mounted right off the stern, meaning that the rudder size is
> proportional to the sailplan. It's a straightforward (well, maybe)
> engineering exercise to determine the rudder width and depth, once the sails
> are specified.
>
> There's probably simple lookup tables or graphs or scantlings in an sailboat
> design book that could be used to calculate the rudder size for a M-17.
>
> But I digress ...
>
> Regards,
> John Fleming
> M-17: "Star Cross'd"
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Message 8 of 48

From: mikit
Subject: Re: M_Boats: Ely, Minnesota
Date: 24 Apr 2000 05:12:07 -0700
-----------------------------------

Jerry,
I was interested in what you had to say regarding tuning the standing
rigging and the effect it has on balance and performance. Even though I am
not sure if my M17 is properly tuned, it all seems to kick in and stabilize
when sailing close hauled in 8 -10 knot wind with 10/15 degrees of heel.
The tug on the tiller of weather helm encourages pointing higher and all
seems to be in balance. Kind of like the feel of an airplane stick or
control wheel while doing a 60-degree banking turn.
I have never experimented to determine if I have optimum tuning on the
rigging. I leveled the trailer with the mast raised and shot the mast with
a transit. The rake was just about an inch aft at the top. I wouldn't
consider this a highly raked mast but I really don't know. Of course this
was without the effects of the mainsheet with the mainsail set and wind
loaded. It would be interested in your tuning techniques. What would you
consider a proper mast rake, or at least a place to start experimenting? I
would also be interested in guidelines for the proper shroud tension. I
have read that they should be tight enough to produce a certain musical
note, a method that would not work for me being tone deaf. I have the mast
plumb antwartship with the shrouds tensioned very snug but not overly
tight. When heeled over in a breeze the leeward shrouds and spreader
slacken somewhat. This gives me concern that I may not have the shrouds
tight enough. What is your thought?
Your airplane analogy was good. The tail wing you referred to is the
elevator or horizontal stabilizer. A change in position of the elevator
modifies the camber of the airfoil, which increases or decreases lift. A
trim tab system incorporates an adjustable trim tab, which is mounted on
the trailing edge of the elevator. By adjusting the tab control the pilot
can reduce pressure on the stick or control wheel for climbing, descending
or level flight, which ever is desired. If I understand what you are
saying, in a sailboat, the desired trim is accomplished with properly tuned
standing rigging in alliance with a correctly designed rudder.
Mike
M-17 #369
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Message 9 of 48

From: John Fleming
Subject: M_Boats: upwind performance and raking (was Ely, Minnesota)
Date: 27 Apr 2000 23:50:35 -0700
-----------------------------------

Hi Jerry, sorry I didn't get back to you sooner, I've been digesting your
post, trying to figure out how to answer it.
When I have trouble visualizing what's going on in a sailboat, I go back to my
few experiences on a sailboard. There's nothing quite like that first day you
learn to steer a sailboard, by either raking the mast, shifting your feet
forward or aft, or sheeting (sic) the sail. That's when you learn, in your
gut, what the center of effort and center of lateral resistance is, and what
it means for a boat to be balanced.
jerry montgomery wrote:
>
> Hi John
>
> A 17 with the mast raked properly loads the rudder to the point where it
> is an important lifting plane, thus the depth and aspect ratio, which
> are extreme compared to your average short, fat cruising boat. [edited]
> It's all in the relationship between the sailplan and
> the foils. There is probably an appropriate analogy in low- speed
> airplanes. If your wing (which bears most of the load) was necessarily
> short and of low aspect, for structural or whatever reasons, but the aft
> wing (aileron?) could be of high aspect, the designer could probably, to
> advantage, distribute the weight so that the plane would fly level when
> the tail wing was angled up a little, to keep the plane flying level.
> The important thing is that while keeping the plane flying level it
> would also contribute to the lift of the plane. Does this make sense to
> you, an airplane guy?
Umm, yes, but conventionally, the tailplane (the elevator) provides downward
lift, to counteract the forward
pitching moment of the wings. Without the tailplane, the airplane would
immediately pitch down and tumble.
There is an airplane analogy, in that some unconventional planes have canards,
low aspect wings forward of the main wings, which both share the lifting load,
and counteract the main wing's pitching moment. These planes take off and
land "level".
> On a boat, I look at this as "loading up the
> rudder", and when things are just right it makes a remarkable difference
> in the upwind performance of the boat. Upwind, at a high angle of
> incidence, a highly raked mast, so that the leach and the luff of the
> sail are close to equal in terms of plus and minus angles, has more
> lift.
I know what you are saying here, I think. It's in two parts. A triangular
sail is known not to be a particularly efficient airfoil, compared to an
elliptical planform. (That's why America's Cup yachts are fractional rigged,
with raked standing rigging, so they can fly an elliptical main sail without
having interference from a backstay.) But by raking the mast, the triangular
main sail beomes more symmetric relative to the wind, and the sail becomes
fractionally more efficient (for various complex reasons), hence more drive
can be developed.
Here's the part I'm having trouble visualizing, and even my sailboard
experiences don't help. Raking the mast moves the sail's center of effort
aft, and all other things staying equal, should increase weather helm (because
it will increase the tendency to round up, requiring increased helm to
counteract). This should slow the boat.
Yet clearly, everyone "knows" that raking the mast increases upwind
performance, and when you see a boardsailer cruising along upwind, they
naturally rake the mast. So, all other things don't remain equal. But I
haven't figured out how it comes out ahead.
Optimum tuning comes when the properly raked mast creates a light
> and controllable weather helm on the rudder, changing the rudder from a
> mere controling surface to a lifting surface. Pointing higher and going
> faster, as they say.
This I can't see. By my thinking, the rudder can never provide forward drive,
only drag and yaw control. The progression for tuning is, I was told, light
winds - lee helm, heavy winds - weather helm, expected winds - a tiny bit of
weather helm. That is, you tune the boat so that at the expected wind speed
and heading you desire, you should have a bit of weather helm. When the wind
drops, you will experience lee helm. And when the wind rises, and the weather
helm becomes excessive, it's time to reef.
You want a little bit of weather helm for controllability. If the boat is
perfectly balanced between keel and sail, it will wander through the waves,
and this will lose you more time and distance than if you retain some lift
(drag!) on the rudder, allowing for a controllable direct course and
consistent airflow over the sail.
Maybe someday I'll get it all straight in my head. Or I'll read an
explanation that sticks in my head. But right now, I can't figure out why
raking for upwind performance works.
Regards,
John Fleming
M-17: "Star Cross'd"
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Message 10 of 48

From: Don Haas
Subject: M_Boats: (no subject)
Date: 06 Jun 2000 20:13:18 -0700
-----------------------------------

Jerry if your lurking...
I'm about to order a set of sails from Kern for my M-15. Is there anything special
I can pass along about the sails that he doesn't already know.
Also, previous discussions talked about mast rake on the '15, you said some was
good. Can you quantify that. Is it 2 degrees, 5 degrees???
Thanks,
Don Haas
M15-248
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Message 11 of 48

From: Don Haas
Subject: M_Boats: M-15 Sails and Mast Rake Question
Date: 06 Jun 2000 20:14:17 -0700
-----------------------------------

Jerry if your lurking...
I'm about to order a set of sails from Kern for my M-15. Is there anything special
I can pass along about the sails that he doesn't already know.
Also, previous discussions talked about mast rake on the '15, you said some was
good. Can you quantify that. Is it 2 degrees, 5 degrees???
Thanks,
Don Haas
M15-248
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Message 12 of 48

From: jerry montgomery
Subject: Re: M_Boats: (no subject)
Date: 06 Jun 2000 21:40:10 +0000
-----------------------------------

Hi Don
My friend Tom Smith just today ordered some 15 sails from kern; order
yours quickly and he'll probably cut them all the same time. Tom and I
are sailing his 15 in the Deathtrap OOPS, I MEAN POTTER race in Oakland
next month and I told Kern that if we don't win it's all going to be
blamed on him.
I can only guess at the mast rake, but I can tell you how to set it up.
You want a little weather helm upwind at all times. In light air, sit
on the lee side of the obat, if needed, to heel it (another guess) about
8 or 10 degrees. If you don't have a touch of helm, rake the mast
another hole and try again until you get it. If raked right, assuming
good sails, the boat will point higher and go faster. The difference
between poor and perfect is remarkable.
Jerry
Don Haas wrote:
>
> Jerry if your lurking...
>
> I'm about to order a set of sails from Kern for my M-15. Is there anything special
> I can pass along about the sails that he doesn't already know.
>
> Also, previous discussions talked about mast rake on the '15, you said some was
> good. Can you quantify that. Is it 2 degrees, 5 degrees???
>
> Thanks,
>
> Don Haas
> M15-248
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Go TopGo Bottom

Message 13 of 48

From: "Judith Franklin Blumhorst, DC"
Subject: M_Boats: Quote from Jerry Montgomery
Date: 07 Jun 2000 11:50:49 -0700
-----------------------------------

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------=_NextPart_000_002E_01BFD076.9FCB91A0
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charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Ahoy All,
"Death, taxes and jerks....facts of life" -- That say's it all, but I've
got a few words of my own to add.
Jerry Montgomery's comments below are unfortunate and inflammatory. They
completely violate the spirit of the SCA Cruiser Challenge. The SCA
Cruiser Challenge is intended to foster friendship and comraderie between
all skippers, not to create animosity.
Mr Montgomery does NOT speak for the whole Montgomery group. Judging by the
Montgomery skippers I have personally met at our monthly events, Monty
owners are friendly, socially adept, sensible folks with a sensible respect
for boats other than Montgomeries, such as Compacs and Potters. They are
confident in their own sailing skills and the capabilities of their boats,
and have no complusion to insult other boats or skippers.
I suggest we completely ignore Mr. Montgomery's from this time forward --
and procede to have a WONDERFUL time at the SCA Cruiser Challenge.
Let's race, wine and dine, and have some great parties!!! Sign up today at
www.potter-yachters.com!
See you there!
Fair winds,
Judy B
Commodore, PotterYachters.
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2000 6:50 AM
This is from the Montgommery board.....death, taxes and jerks....facts of
life
Hi Don
My friend Tom Smith just today ordered some 15 sails from kern; order
yours quickly and he'll probably cut them all the same time. Tom and I are
sailing his M15 in the Deathtrap OOPS, I MEAN POTTER race in Oakland next
month and I told Kern that if we don't win it's all going to be blamed on
him.
I can only guess at the mast rake, but I can tell you how to set it up. You
want a little weather helm upwind at all times. In light air, sit on the
lee side of the obat, if needed, to heel it (another guess) about 8 or 10
degrees. If you don't have a touch of helm, rake the mast another hole and
try again until you get it. If raked right, assuming good sails, the boat
will point higher and go faster. The difference between poor and perfect is
remarkable.
Jerry M
Don Haas wrote:
>
> Jerry if your lurking...
>
John P
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
----
----
Post: WWPotter@egroups.com
Help: WWPotter-owner@egroups.com
------=_NextPart_000_002E_01BFD076.9FCB91A0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


http-equiv=3DContent-Type>


class=3D710315717-07062000>Ahoy=20
All,

class=3D710315717-07062000> 

class=3D710315717-07062000>"Death, taxes and jerks....facts of =
life" =20
--  That say's it all, but I've got a few words of my own to=20
add.

size=3D2>class=3D710315717-07062000>Jerry Montgomery's comments below are =
unfortunate and=20
inflammatorysize=3D2>class=3D710315717-07062000>. They completely violate the spirit of =
the SCA=20
Cruiser Challenge.  face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>The SCA Cruiser Challenge is =
intended to=20
foster friendship and comraderie between all skippers, not to create=20
animosity. 

class=3D710315717-07062000>face=3DArial=20
size=3D2> 

class=3D710315717-07062000>Mr=20
Montgomery does NOT speak for the whole Montgomery group.  Judging =
by=20
the Montgomery skippers I have personally met at our =
monthly events,=20
Monty owners are friendly, socially adept, sensible folks with =
a=20
sensible respect for boats other than Montgomeries, such as Compacs =
and=20
Potters.  They are confident in their own sailing skills and the=20
capabilities of their boats, and have no complusion to insult other =
boats=20
or skippers. 

class=3D710315717-07062000> 

class=3D710315717-07062000>face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>I suggest we completely =
ignore Mr.=20
Montgomery's from this time forward -- and procede to have =
a WONDERFUL time=20
at the SCA Cruiser Challenge. 

class=3D710315717-07062000> 

class=3D710315717-07062000>Let's=20
race, wine and dine, and have some great parties!!!  Sign up today =
at href=3D"http://www.potter-yachters.com">www.potter-yachters.com!N>

class=3D710315717-07062000> 

class=3D710315717-07062000>See=20
you there!

class=3D710315717-07062000> 

class=3D710315717-07062000>Fair=20
winds,

class=3D710315717-07062000>Judy=20
B

class=3D710315717-07062000>Commodore, =
PotterYachters.

class=3D710315717-07062000> 

 

size=3D2>class=3D710315717-07062000>face=3DArial> 

class=3D710315717-07062000> -----Original =
Message-----
From:=20
HP Authorized Customer [mailto:preston@northlink.com]
Sent: =
Wednesday,=20
June 07, 2000 6:50 AM
To: =
WWPotter@egroups.com
Subject:=20
[WWP] Cruiser Challenge Quote

This is =
from the=20
Montgommery board.....death, taxes and jerks....facts of life

Hi=20
Don

My friend Tom Smith just today ordered some 15 sails from =
kern;=20
order
yours quickly and he'll probably cut them all the same =
time.  Tom=20
and I are sailing his M15 in the Deathtrap OOPS, I MEAN POTTER race in =
Oakland=20
next month and I told Kern that if we don't win it's all going to be =
blamed on=20
him.

I can only guess at the mast rake, but I can tell you how to =
set it=20
up.  You want a little weather helm upwind at all times.  In =
light=20
air, sit on the lee side of the obat, if needed, to heel it (another =
guess)=20
about 8 or 10 degrees.  If you don't have a touch of helm, rake the =
mast=20
another hole and try again until you get it.  If raked right, =
assuming good=20
sails, the boat will point higher and go faster. The difference between =
poor and=20
perfect is remarkable.

Jerry M

Don Haas wrote:
> =

>=20
Jerry if your lurking...
>

John P


[Non-text =
portions of=20
this message have been removed]



width=3D468>





width=3D468>


=
src=3D"http://view.avenuea.com/view/egroups_goguides_BA1006_WEBTEXT_05090=
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width=3D468>


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method=3Dget>

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NOSEND=3D"1">=20

Post: =
WWPotter@egroups.com
Help:=20
WWPotter-owner@egroups.com


------=_NextPart_000_002E_01BFD076.9FCB91A0--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Go TopGo Bottom

Message 14 of 48

From: Tom Smith
Subject: RE: M_Boats: Quote from Jerry Montgomery
Date: 07 Jun 2000 13:44:11 -0700
-----------------------------------

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this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
------_=_NextPart_001_01BFD0C1.2268BEFE
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"


Please spare me "unfortunate and inflammatory". He doesn't need me to
defend him, but Jerry is opinionated and outspoken, and equally generous and
helpful to anybody who asks. If Potter owners are that thin-skinned (which
I doubt), they need to rename the "SCA Cruiser Challenge" the "Warm and
Fuzzy Let's All Group Hug and be Friends Walk in the Park". If anything is
unfortunate, it's that preston at northlink, who must lurk on the M list
(you there preston?) didn't have the nerve to ask Jerry to explain himself
rather than go crying to the Potter list.



-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2000 11:51 AM

Ahoy All,

"Death, taxes and jerks....facts of life" -- That say's it all, but I've
got a few words of my own to add.
Jerry Montgomery's comments below are unfortunate and inflammatory. They
completely violate the spirit of the SCA Cruiser Challenge. The SCA Cruiser
Challenge is intended to foster friendship and comraderie between all
skippers, not to create animosity.

Mr Montgomery does NOT speak for the whole Montgomery group. Judging by the
Montgomery skippers I have personally met at our monthly events, Monty
owners are friendly, socially adept, sensible folks with a sensible respect
for boats other than Montgomeries, such as Compacs and Potters. They are
confident in their own sailing skills and the capabilities of their boats,
and have no complusion to insult other boats or skippers.

I suggest we completely ignore Mr. Montgomery's from this time forward --
and procede to have a WONDERFUL time at the SCA Cruiser Challenge.

Let's race, wine and dine, and have some great parties!!! Sign up today at
www.potter-yachters.com !

See you there!

Fair winds,
Judy B
Commodore, PotterYachters.



-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2000 6:50 AM
This is from the Montgommery board.....death, taxes and jerks....facts of
life
Hi Don
My friend Tom Smith just today ordered some 15 sails from kern; order
yours quickly and he'll probably cut them all the same time. Tom and I are
sailing his M15 in the Deathtrap OOPS, I MEAN POTTER race in Oakland next
month and I told Kern that if we don't win it's all going to be blamed on
him.
I can only guess at the mast rake, but I can tell you how to set it up. You
want a little weather helm upwind at all times. In light air, sit on the
lee side of the obat, if needed, to heel it (another guess) about 8 or 10
degrees. If you don't have a touch of helm, rake the mast another hole and
try again until you get it. If raked right, assuming good sails, the boat
will point higher and go faster. The difference between poor and perfect is
remarkable.
Jerry M
Don Haas wrote:
>
> Jerry if your lurking...
>
John P
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
_____

./direct/01>



_____
Post: WWPotter@egroups.com
Help: WWPotter-owner@egroups.com
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style=3D'tab-interval:.5in'>


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=

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=

color=3Dnavy face=3DArial>style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'>P=
lease
spare me “unfortunate and inflammatory”.style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes"> 
He doesn’t need me to defend him, but Jerry is opinionated =
and outspoken,
and equally generous and helpful to anybody who asks.style=3D"mso-spacerun:
yes">  If Potter owners are that thin-skinned (which I =
doubt), they
need to rename the “SCA Cruiser Challenge” the “Warm =
and Fuzzy Let’s All Group Hug
and be Friends Walk in the Park”.yes">  style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes"> If anything is unfortunate, =
it’s that preston
at northlink, who must lurk on the M list (you there preston?) =
didn’t have the nerve
to ask Jerry to explain himself rather than go crying to the Potter =
list.style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">  =


color=3Dnavy face=3DArial>style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><=
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![if =
!supportEmptyParas]> 

=

color=3Dblack
face=3DTahoma>style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'>-----Original
Message-----

From: Judith Franklin =
Blumhorst,
DC [mailto:DrJudyB@pacbell.net]

Sent: Wednesday, June =
07, 2000
11:51 AM

To: Montgomery List;
WWPotter@egroups.com

Subject: M_Boats: Quote =
from Jerry
Montgomery


face=3D"Times New Roman">style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>!supportEmptyParas]> 


color=3Dblue face=3DArial>style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Ahoy =
All,color=3Dblack>style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'>=


color=3Dblack
face=3D"Times New Roman">style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> color=3Dblack>style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'>=


color=3Dblue face=3DArial>style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>"Death, =
taxes and
jerks....facts of life"  --  That say's it all, but I've =
got a
few words of my own to add.



Jerry Montgomery's comments below are unfortunate and =
inflammatory. They
completely violate the spirit of the SCA Cruiser =
Challenge.  The SCA
Cruiser Challenge is intended to foster friendship and comraderie =
between all
skippers, not to create animosity.  color=3Dblack>style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'>=


color=3Dblack
face=3D"Times New Roman">style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> color=3Dblack>style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'>=


color=3Dblue face=3DArial>style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Mr Montgomery =
does NOT
speak for the whole Montgomery group.  Judging by =
the Montgomery
skippers I have personally met at our monthly events, Monty owners
are friendly, socially adept, sensible folks with a
sensible respect for boats other than Montgomeries, such as =
Compacs and
Potters.  They are confident in their own sailing skills and the =
capabilities
of their boats, and have no complusion to insult other boats or
skippers.  style=3D'color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'>


color=3Dblack
face=3D"Times New Roman">style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> color=3Dblack>style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'>=


color=3Dblue face=3DArial>style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>I suggest =
we
completely ignore Mr. Montgomery's from this time forward -- and =
procede to
have a WONDERFUL time at the SCA Cruiser Challenge.  =
color=3Dblack>style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'>=


color=3Dblack
face=3D"Times New Roman">style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> color=3Dblack>style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'>=


color=3Dblue face=3DArial>style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Let's race, =
wine and
dine, and have some great parties!!!  Sign up today at href=3D"http://www.potter-yachters.com">www.potter-yachters.com!an>color=3Dblack>style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'>=


color=3Dblack
face=3D"Times New Roman">style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> color=3Dblack>style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'>=


color=3Dblue face=3DArial>style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>See you =
there!color=3Dblack>style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'>=


color=3Dblack
face=3D"Times New Roman">style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> color=3Dblack>style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'>=


color=3Dblue face=3DArial>style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Fair =
winds,color=3Dblack>style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'>=


color=3Dblue face=3DArial>style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Judy =
Bcolor=3Dblack>style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'>=


color=3Dblue face=3DArial>style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Commodore,
PotterYachters.style=3D'color:black;
mso-color-alt:windowtext'>


color=3Dblack
face=3D"Times New Roman">style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> color=3Dblack>style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'>=


color=3Dblack
face=3D"Times New Roman">style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'> color=3Dblack>style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'>=


color=3Dblue face=3DArial>style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'> ont>color=3Dblack>style=3D'color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'>=


style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
12.0pt;margin-left:.5in'>face=3DTahoma>style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black'> -----Ori=
ginal
Message-----

From: HP Authorized =
Customer
[mailto:preston@northlink.com]

Sent: Wednesday, June =
07, 2000
6:50 AM

To: =
WWPotter@egroups.com

Subject: [WWP] Cruiser =
Challenge
Quotestyle=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'>:p>


color=3Dblack
face=3D"Courier New">style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";
color:black'>This is from the Montgommery board.....death, taxes and
jerks....facts of lifeface=3D"Courier New">style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";
mso-fareast-font-family:"Courier New";color:black'>



Hi Don



My friend Tom Smith just today ordered some 15 sails from kern; =
order

yours quickly and he'll probably cut them all the same time.  =
Tom and
I are sailing his M15 in the Deathtrap OOPS, I MEAN POTTER race in =
Oakland next
month and I told Kern that if we don't win it's all going to be blamed =
on him.



I can only guess at the mast rake, but I can tell you how to set it
up.  You want a little weather helm upwind at all times.  In =
light
air, sit on the lee side of the obat, if needed, to heel it (another =
guess)
about 8 or 10 degrees.  If you don't have a touch of helm, rake =
the mast
another hole and try again until you get it.  If raked right, =
assuming
good sails, the boat will point higher and go faster. The difference =
between
poor and perfect is remarkable.



Jerry M



Don Haas wrote:

>

> Jerry if your lurking...

>



John P





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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color:black;mso-color-alt:windowtext'>

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Message 15 of 48

From: Tim Minter and Jenny Konwinski
Subject: Re: M_Boats: Quote from Jerry Montgomery
Date: 07 Jun 2000 16:46:24 -0400
-----------------------------------

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hmmm. thin skin? (now i'm ducking out to try to escape the
firebomb...wish me luck)
tim "run-like-hell" minter
m-12 sailing dinghy
...and other boats of questionable/respectable lineage
"Judith Franklin Blumhorst, DC" wrote:
> Ahoy All,"Death, taxes and jerks....facts of life" -- That say's it
> all, but I've got a few words of my own to add.
>
> Jerry Montgomery's comments below are unfortunate and inflammatory.
> They completely violate the spirit of the SCA Cruiser Challenge. The
> SCA Cruiser Challenge is intended to foster friendship and comraderie
> between all skippers, not to create animosity. Mr Montgomery does NOT
> speak for the whole Montgomery group. Judging by the Montgomery
> skippers I have personally met at our monthly events, Monty owners are
> friendly, socially adept, sensible folks with a sensible respect for
> boats other than Montgomeries, such as Compacs and Potters. They are
> confident in their own sailing skills and the capabilities of their
> boats, and have no complusion to insult other boats or skippers. I
> suggest we completely ignore Mr. Montgomery's from this time forward
> -- and procede to have a WONDERFUL time at the SCA Cruiser
> Challenge. Let's race, wine and dine, and have some great parties!!!
> Sign up today at www.potter-yachters.com!See you there!Fair winds,Judy
> BCommodore, PotterYachters. -----Original Message-----
> From: HP Authorized Customer [mailto:preston@northlink.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2000 6:50 AM
> To: WWPotter@egroups.com
> Subject: [WWP] Cruiser Challenge Quote
> This is from the Montgommery board.....death, taxes and
> jerks....facts of life
>
> Hi Don
>
> My friend Tom Smith just today ordered some 15 sails from kern; order
> yours quickly and he'll probably cut them all the same time. Tom and
> I are sailing his M15 in the Deathtrap OOPS, I MEAN POTTER race in
> Oakland next month and I told Kern that if we don't win it's all going
> to be blamed on him.
>
> I can only guess at the mast rake, but I can tell you how to set it
> up. You want a little weather helm upwind at all times. In light
> air, sit on the lee side of the obat, if needed, to heel it (another
> guess) about 8 or 10 degrees. If you don't have a touch of helm, rake
> the mast another hole and try again until you get it. If raked right,
> assuming good sails, the boat will point higher and go faster. The
> difference between poor and perfect is remarkable.
>
> Jerry M
>
> Don Haas wrote:
> >
> > Jerry if your lurking...
> >
>
> John P
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
[Image]
[Image] [Image]
> [Image]
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Post: WWPotter@egroups.com
> Help: WWPotter-owner@egroups.com
>
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hmmm.  thin skin?  (now i'm ducking out to try to escape the
firebomb...wish me luck)

tim "run-like-hell" minter

m-12 sailing dinghy

...and other boats of questionable/respectable lineage

 

"Judith Franklin Blumhorst, DC" wrote:

 Ahoy
All,class=710315717-07062000>class=710315717-07062000>"Death,
taxes and jerks....facts of life"  --  That say's it all, but
I've got a few words of my own to add.

class=710315717-07062000>Jerry
Montgomery's comments below are unfortunate and inflammatoryclass=710315717-07062000>.
They completely violate the spirit of the SCA Cruiser Challenge. The
SCA Cruiser Challenge is intended to foster friendship and comraderie between
all skippers, not to create animosity. class=710315717-07062000>Mr
Montgomery does NOT speak for the whole Montgomery group.  Judging
by the Montgomery skippers I have personally met at our monthly events,
Monty owners are friendly, socially adept, sensible folks with a sensible
respect for boats other than Montgomeries, such as Compacs and Potters. 
They are confident in their own sailing skills and the capabilities of
their boats, and have no complusion to insult other boats or skippers. class=710315717-07062000>class=710315717-07062000>I
suggest we completely ignore Mr. Montgomery's from this time forward --
and procede to have a WONDERFUL time at the SCA Cruiser Challenge. class=710315717-07062000>Let's
race, wine and dine, and have some great parties!!!  Sign up today
at www.potter-yachters.com!class=710315717-07062000>See
you there!class=710315717-07062000>Fair
winds,Judy
Bclass=710315717-07062000>Commodore,
PotterYachters.class=710315717-07062000> class=710315717-07062000>class=710315717-07062000>-----Original
Message-----

From: HP Authorized Customer
[mailto:preston@northlink.com]

Sent: Wednesday, June 07,
2000 6:50 AM

To: WWPotter@egroups.com

Subject: [WWP] Cruiser Challenge
Quote

 This is from the Montgommery board.....death, taxes and jerks....facts
of life

Hi Don

My friend Tom Smith just today ordered some 15 sails from kern;
order

yours quickly and he'll probably cut them all the same time. 
Tom and I are sailing his M15 in the Deathtrap OOPS, I MEAN POTTER race
in Oakland next month and I told Kern that if we don't win it's all going
to be blamed on him.

I can only guess at the mast rake, but I can tell you how to set
it up.  You want a little weather helm upwind at all times. 
In light air, sit on the lee side of the obat, if needed, to heel it (another
guess) about 8 or 10 degrees.  If you don't have a touch of helm,
rake the mast another hole and try again until you get it.  If raked
right, assuming good sails, the boat will point higher and go faster. The
difference between poor and perfect is remarkable.

Jerry M

Don Haas wrote:

>

> Jerry if your lurking...

>

John P

 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


































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Go TopGo Bottom

Message 16 of 48

From: Robert Eeg
Subject: M_Boats: Hey Gang!!!! Lets ALL relax....
Date: 07 Jun 2000 15:25:57 +0000
-----------------------------------

--------------49D5A915AA8407E451614BAD
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Hi Everyone!
Monty people and Potter people!
I've known Jerry Montgomery for a couple of decades
and he is one hell of a boat builder and a good guy!
All of us on this Montgomery List server consider
Jerry Montgomery part of the family. After all, the
List is named after him.
I'am sure that Jerry was talking in a humorous way
about potters and he thought that he was talking in
his circle of friends....those of us on this Montgomery
List. (we love his humor!)
We don't expect 'lurkers' to be listening over our
shoulder when we talk among our friends.
He does have a sense of humor and is opinionated,
something that we all can appreciate.
But.....
Please don't take any comments anyone makes about
other boats seriously......
Its all in good fun and with a smile on our faces.
Because some of us are in the business of building boats
we sometimes "joke" about different boats.
(Like Ford salesman talking about Chevys)
I have joked about MacGregors, Potters, Catalinas, etc.
and others over the years.
During boat shows the jokes flow back and forth about
this boat or that boat and Its ALL IN GOOD FUN!
We have even shared our pizza with the potter people at
boatshows in the past. We all know each other and
tongue in cheek comments about "deathtraps",
"Hull and deck failures", "floating carpet palaces" and
"sawdust core" go aound the table when discussing
the other companys boats.
ITS REALLY ALL IN JEST, with no harm intended and
we all laugh together. They joked about us, we joked about them.
In this age of "political Correctness" maybe the jokes
aren't funny. (are we getting thin skinned and over-reacting?)
So I propose that until we are all drunk and naked at
the Oakland Yacht Club...... we cool the boat humor.
I've met Judy and I like her a lot. I want us all to have a great time
at the SCA Cruiser Challenge.
I will even buy a beer for the potter skippers
(if they drink it before the race, with 3 shots of
Tequila;-)
I am sure everyone will get along famously.
Lets learn to laugh.
Take care
Bob Eeg
"Judith Franklin Blumhorst, DC" wrote:
> Ahoy All,"Death, taxes and jerks....facts of life" -- That say's it
> all, but I've got a few words of my own to add.
>
> Jerry Montgomery's comments below are unfortunate and inflammatory.
> They completely violate the spirit of the SCA Cruiser Challenge. The
> SCA Cruiser Challenge is intended to foster friendship and comraderie
> between all skippers, not to create animosity. Mr Montgomery does NOT
> speak for the whole Montgomery group. Judging by the Montgomery
> skippers I have personally met at our monthly events, Monty owners are
> friendly, socially adept, sensible folks with a sensible respect for
> boats other than Montgomeries, such as Compacs and Potters. They are
> confident in their own sailing skills and the capabilities of their
> boats, and have no complusion to insult other boats or skippers. I
> suggest we completely ignore Mr. Montgomery's from this time forward
> -- and procede to have a WONDERFUL time at the SCA Cruiser
> Challenge. Let's race, wine and dine, and have some great parties!!!
> Sign up today at www.potter-yachters.com!See you there!Fair winds,Judy
> BCommodore, PotterYachters. -----Original Message-----
> From: HP Authorized Customer [mailto:preston@northlink.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2000 6:50 AM
> To: WWPotter@egroups.com
> Subject: [WWP] Cruiser Challenge Quote
> This is from the Montgommery board.....death, taxes and
> jerks....facts of life
>
> Hi Don
>
> My friend Tom Smith just today ordered some 15 sails from kern; order
> yours quickly and he'll probably cut them all the same time. Tom and
> I are sailing his M15 in the Deathtrap OOPS, I MEAN POTTER race in
> Oakland next month and I told Kern that if we don't win it's all going
> to be blamed on him.
>
> I can only guess at the mast rake, but I can tell you how to set it
> up. You want a little weather helm upwind at all times. In light
> air, sit on the lee side of the obat, if needed, to heel it (another
> guess) about 8 or 10 degrees. If you don't have a touch of helm, rake
> the mast another hole and try again until you get it. If raked right,
> assuming good sails, the boat will point higher and go faster. The
> difference between poor and perfect is remarkable.
>
> Jerry M
>
> Don Haas wrote:
> >
> > Jerry if your lurking...
> >
>
> John P
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
[Image]
[Image] [Image]
> [Image]
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Post: WWPotter@egroups.com
> Help: WWPotter-owner@egroups.com
>
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Hi Everyone!

Monty people and Potter people!

 

I've known Jerry Montgomery for a couple of decades

and he is one hell of a boat builder and a good guy!

    All of us on this Montgomery List server consider

Jerry Montgomery part of the family. After all, the

List is named after him.

    I'am sure that Jerry was talking in a humorous way

about potters and he thought that he was talking in

his circle of friends....those of us on this Montgomery

List.  (we love his humor!)

    We don't expect 'lurkers' to be listening over our

shoulder when we talk among our friends.

He does have a sense of humor and is opinionated,

something that we all can appreciate.

But.....

Please don't take any comments anyone makes about

other boats seriously......

Its all in good fun and with a smile on our faces.

Because some of us are in the  business of building boats

we sometimes "joke" about different boats.

(Like Ford salesman talking about Chevys)

I have joked about MacGregors, Potters, Catalinas, etc.

and others over the years.

During boat shows the jokes flow back and forth about

this boat or that boat and Its ALL IN GOOD FUN!

We have even shared our pizza with the potter people at

boatshows in the past. We all know each other and

tongue in cheek comments about "deathtraps",

"Hull and deck failures", "floating carpet palaces" and

"sawdust core" go aound the table when discussing

the other companys boats.

ITS REALLY ALL IN JEST, with no harm intended and

we all laugh together. They joked about us, we joked about them.

       In this age of "political Correctness"
maybe the jokes

aren't funny. (are we getting thin skinned and over-reacting?)

So I propose that until we are all drunk and naked at

the Oakland Yacht Club...... we cool the boat humor.

I've met Judy and I like her a lot. I want us all to have a great time
at the SCA Cruiser Challenge.

 

I will even buy a beer for the potter skippers

(if they drink it before the race, with 3 shots of

Tequila;-)

I am sure everyone will get along famously.

Lets learn to laugh.

Take care

Bob Eeg

 

 

 

 

 

"Judith Franklin Blumhorst, DC" wrote:

 Ahoy
All,class=710315717-07062000>class=710315717-07062000>"Death,
taxes and jerks....facts of life"  --  That say's it all, but
I've got a few words of my own to add.

class=710315717-07062000>Jerry
Montgomery's comments below are unfortunate and inflammatoryclass=710315717-07062000>.
They completely violate the spirit of the SCA Cruiser Challenge. The
SCA Cruiser Challenge is intended to foster friendship and comraderie between
all skippers, not to create animosity. class=710315717-07062000>Mr
Montgomery does NOT speak for the whole Montgomery group.  Judging
by the Montgomery skippers I have personally met at our monthly events,
Monty owners are friendly, socially adept, sensible folks with a sensible
respect for boats other than Montgomeries, such as Compacs and Potters. 
They are confident in their own sailing skills and the capabilities of
their boats, and have no complusion to insult other boats or skippers. class=710315717-07062000>class=710315717-07062000>I
suggest we completely ignore Mr. Montgomery's from this time forward --
and procede to have a WONDERFUL time at the SCA Cruiser Challenge. class=710315717-07062000>Let's
race, wine and dine, and have some great parties!!!  Sign up today
at www.potter-yachters.com!class=710315717-07062000>See
you there!class=710315717-07062000>Fair
winds,Judy
Bclass=710315717-07062000>Commodore,
PotterYachters.class=710315717-07062000> class=710315717-07062000>class=710315717-07062000>-----Original
Message-----

From: HP Authorized Customer
[mailto:preston@northlink.com]

Sent: Wednesday, June 07,
2000 6:50 AM

To: WWPotter@egroups.com

Subject: [WWP] Cruiser Challenge
Quote

 This is from the Montgommery board.....death, taxes and jerks....facts
of life

Hi Don

My friend Tom Smith just today ordered some 15 sails from kern;
order

yours quickly and he'll probably cut them all the same time. 
Tom and I are sailing his M15 in the Deathtrap OOPS, I MEAN POTTER race
in Oakland next month and I told Kern that if we don't win it's all going
to be blamed on him.

I can only guess at the mast rake, but I can tell you how to set
it up.  You want a little weather helm upwind at all times. 
In light air, sit on the lee side of the obat, if needed, to heel it (another
guess) about 8 or 10 degrees.  If you don't have a touch of helm,
rake the mast another hole and try again until you get it.  If raked
right, assuming good sails, the boat will point higher and go faster. The
difference between poor and perfect is remarkable.

Jerry M

Don Haas wrote:

>

> Jerry if your lurking...

>

John P

 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


































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type=image>



Post: WWPotter@egroups.com

Help: WWPotter-owner@egroups.com

 


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Message 17 of 48

From: Michael & Lizabeth Towers
Subject: M_Boats: Mast rake
Date: 16 Jun 2000 08:17:10 -0700
-----------------------------------

A couple of weeks ago Jerry answered a question about mast rake on the 15:
>I can only guess at the mast rake, but I can tell you how to set it up.
>You want a little weather helm upwind at all times. In light air, sit
>on the lee side of the boat, if needed, to heel it (another guess) about
>8 or 10 degrees. If you don't have a touch of helm, rake the mast
>another hole and try again until you get it. If raked right, assuming
>good sails, the boat will point higher and go faster. The difference
>between poor and perfect is remarkable.
Jerry, Is this how to set up a 17 also?
Michael Towers
#226
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Message 18 of 48

From: jerry montgomery
Subject: Re: M_Boats: Mast rake
Date: 16 Jun 2000 07:39:27 +0000
-----------------------------------

Yes, and a 23 also, and most other well-balanced boats, too.
Michael & Lizabeth Towers wrote:
>
> A couple of weeks ago Jerry answered a question about mast rake on the 15:
>
> >I can only guess at the mast rake, but I can tell you how to set it up.
> >You want a little weather helm upwind at all times. In light air, sit
> >on the lee side of the boat, if needed, to heel it (another guess) about
> >8 or 10 degrees. If you don't have a touch of helm, rake the mast
> >another hole and try again until you get it. If raked right, assuming
> >good sails, the boat will point higher and go faster. The difference
> >between poor and perfect is remarkable.
>
> Jerry, Is this how to set up a 17 also?
>
> Michael Towers
> #226
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Message 19 of 48

From: Howard A
Subject: M_Boats: Rigging Tip
Date: 15 Mar 2001 18:26:05 -0600
-----------------------------------

Since it's been slow, here is something to ponder. There have been some
questions about mast rake in the past, and Tom Smith provided a very
good summary of how Jerry tuned the rig on his M15 last year prior to
the ditch race. But in all this, the devil is in the details. Tom
mentioned that Jerry likes "lots of rake", but how do you quantify that?
As in "how long is a piece of string"?
According to my rigging book, there is a mathematical calculation.
Basically, it's a function of the P length of your mainsail.
For a masthead rig (M17), the "typical rake" is from .5 to 1 degree.
This correlates to .9 to 1.75 cm/meter of P (19') length. Doing the
math, this means that measured at the tack point on the gooseneck, the
main halyard should extend out from the tack point 2 to 4 inches. With
the boat sitting level in the water, put a weight on the main halyard to
let it act as a plumb bob and let it hang level at the tack point on the
gooseneck. Adjust the forestay and back stay until you get this much
distance. More rake means the boat will point higher and will have more
weather helm.
For a fractional rig (M15), the "typical rake" is 2 to 3 degrees. This
translates to 3.5 to 5.25 cm/meter of P length. I don't have the P
length for the M15, and can't find it anywhere, so I can't do the math
for that. But that much rake for the M17 above is 8" to 12", measured at
the gooseneck. That seems like a lot, and would match up with what Tom
said about Jerry's ideas on rake. Again, the 2 to 3 degrees of rake is
for the fractional rig M15.
My whole purpose for this is to simply come up with some objective
measures that can be put into use. Once we get it figured out, this
should work for everyone.
For those of you fortunate enough to have boats in the water, take a
look at this to see if it holds up, and let the rest of us know what you
find out.
Regards,
Howard
M17, #278
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Message 20 of 48

From: Richard Lane
Subject: Re: M_Boats: Update on refit progress
Date: 25 Mar 2001 23:03:12 -0800
-----------------------------------

No, there isn't an easy way, I had to cut the bulkhead away on Sadhana where
the original owner/finisher had omitted a backing plate. After removing all
the pukey balsa core I filled the resulting cavity with West epoxy and
micro-ballons and brought the mast tabernacle 1.5" forward and drilled four
new holes sandwiching the deck between the tabernacle and a curved 1/8" S.S.
backing plate. Gave a little more mast rake!
Dick
Jeff Grudin wrote:
>
> I wanted to remove the mast base and put some bedding compound in the
> screw holes as there is evidence of water leakage along these screws.
> the fore-port bolt appears to have a nut within the wood of the
> bulkhead. Does anyone know of an easy way to get to this?
>
>
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Message 21 of 48

From: Michael & Lizabeth Towers
Subject: Re: M_Boats: M-17 Roller Furling Jib/Forestay
Date: 22 Jun 2001 12:56:51 -0500
-----------------------------------

>Is there a way to adjust the length of the cable running through the M-17's
>roller furling jib, that serves as the forestay? Or is the length of the
>roller furler/forestay supposed to be correct as built? I have the feeling
>that my forestay is too slack, but, with the roller furling jib, I can't see
>any obvious way of adjusting this.
If it's a CDI furler, the following applies. The turnbuckle is inside the
drum. Pull the pin at the top of the drum and slide it up the forestay to
expose the turnbuckle. Make sure you cotter pin the turnbuckle after
adjusting it so it doesn't come unscrewed.
The M17 sails best with some mast rake. Here's what Jerry Montgomery has to
say about it:
I always sailed the 17 with quite a bit of rake- probably about a foot
although I never measured it and it would be different with different
sails. Getting the rake right makes all the difference in the world in
how the boat goes upwind. You should have a light weather helm, even in
light air, with the boat heeled ten degrees or so. Play around with it
and the boat will tell you when it's happy by pointing higher and going
faster, unless you have blown-out sails, in which case all the boat will
tell you is "I need new sails and I refuse to go upwind until I get
them"
I alway tune the uppers a little tighter than the lowers, but still not
real tight. Check the mast when driving hard (on both tacks) and the
mast should be straight from side-to-side. I always used a backstay
adjustor and tightened the headstay with it when going upwind in a blow,
and easing it off in light air to let it sag a little to make the genoa
a little fuller and to open up the slot; also reaching unless you are
being overpowered.
Jerry
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Message 22 of 48

From: Tom Smith
Subject: M_Boats: weather helm
Date: 25 Jun 2001 15:45:32 -0700
-----------------------------------

I'm sailing in fairly heavy, gusty winds here in Idaho these days, and
finding I'm fighting a good deal of weather helm in the process. I'm flying
a new 100% jib and main. I'm flattening the sail pretty well using
cunningham, outhaul, and vang, but boy am I having to wrestle that tiller
sometimes. I'm slow to reduce sail--I prefer to pinch and play the main in
the gusts, but it can be a real rodeo out there pardners. Mast rake is
very moderate, but I might be able to move things forward a little. Any
suggestions (besides the obvious...reef sooner)?

Tom Smith and Jane Van Winkle
M15/345 -- Chukar
Sandpoint, Idaho
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Message 23 of 48

From: "Bill Riker"
Subject: RE: M_Boats: weather helm
Date: 25 Jun 2001 20:52:41 -0400
-----------------------------------

Tom,
Like you, I prefer to pinch and play the main in gusts, if necessary. Storm
Petrel will take over and head up when overpowered, but by then it's usually
the right thing to do. I had a fantastic sail across the Chesapeake a
couple of weeks ago in those conditions, and was very happy with her
performance.
I keep the mast raked as much as I can without swapping out the forestay,
and move weight forward as much as possible. I have full battens and can't
flatten the sail (easily) as much as you, but I did ease them a little on
this years Chesapeake trip, and I think the slightly flatter sail helps in
heavy conditions without hurting in light air. I will probably try easing
them a bit more, as a test. One reason I haven't gone for an adjustable
motor mount is that it puts weight higher and further back.
Funny thing. I've heard it said that sailboats seem to perform better on
one tack than the other, for no apparent reason. Storm Petrel perfers the
starboard tack, even though she's dragging the motor a bit on that tack.
Interesting.
Bill Riker
M-15 #184
Storm Petrel
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Tom Smith
Sent: June 25, 2001 6:46 PM
I'm sailing in fairly heavy, gusty winds here in Idaho these days, and
finding I'm fighting a good deal of weather helm in the process. I'm flying
a new 100% jib and main. I'm flattening the sail pretty well using
cunningham, outhaul, and vang, but boy am I having to wrestle that tiller
sometimes. I'm slow to reduce sail--I prefer to pinch and play the main in
the gusts, but it can be a real rodeo out there pardners. Mast rake is
very moderate, but I might be able to move things forward a little. Any
suggestions (besides the obvious...reef sooner)?
Tom Smith and Jane Van Winkle
M15/345 -- Chukar
Sandpoint, Idaho
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Message 24 of 48

From: Doug Kelch
Subject: Re: M_Boats: weather helm
Date: 25 Jun 2001 19:16:58 -0700 (PDT)
-----------------------------------

I have less mast rake than Bill Riker and Abby Gura
have on their M15s. I think my helm is gennerally
lighter than thiers but they seem to be a tad faster.
Have you tried raising the CB up 2" at a time to move
the center of lateral resitance aft a little?
Doug
"Seas the Day"
--- Tom Smith wrote:
> I'm sailing in fairly heavy, gusty winds here in
> Idaho these days, and
> finding I'm fighting a good deal of weather helm in
> the process. Mast rake is
> very moderate, but I might be able to move things
> forward a little. Any
> suggestions (besides the obvious...reef sooner)

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Message 25 of 48

From: jerry montgomery
Subject: Re: M_Boats: SCA Results
Date: 26 Jun 2001 20:13:20 +0000
-----------------------------------

Hi John- Just for the sake of good usage of my time, I decided a couple
of years ago to not answer letters and e-mails regarding the Montgomery
boats unless they were asking questions that could possibly only be
answered by me; me being the ex-builder, and in most cases the one who
worked out all the little details of design and construction of the M
boats. I make most of my living doing other things now. I guess racing
the 17 is in kind of a gray area in that regard (altho several M-17
sailors who have beat me regularly or frequently might have something to
say about the shade of gray), and because of the just-finished SCA race,
let me get off with writing about a few things that I consider
important. This is fresh on my mind because I just helped Bob Campbell
set his 17 up for the first time.
Assuming you have good sails, the most important thing in sailing
upwind, where most races are won or lost, is mast rake. I can't tell
you how much to rake the mast back because it depends in part on the
suit of sails and the trim of the boat, and I go by feel more than
anything else, but it's enough to give you a little helm at all times
upwind, even in a drifter.
You need a tiller extension so that you can sit on the coaming when
needed. You need a backstay adjuster to control the headstay tension,
and therefore the shape of the jib. You need a jib halyard winch for
the same reason. You need a vang or preventer to control the twist in
the main off the wind. Very important is an easy way to pull the main
traveller to weather; the lighter the wind, the more important it is. I
used to offer a roller-bearing traveller, with cleats, blocks, and a
control line, as on option on the 17. Very few ordered it, but I
wouldn't have a boat without it. You can get by with using the regular
traveller and mounting, on the vertical wall of the footwell at each
end, a small becket block with a clam cleat just above it.
The control line should be endless so that when you tack you can pop it
loose on the new leeward side and pull it to you, all with the same
line.
Those a some of the important things. The 17 usually sails best with a
150 unless you have more than about 15 knots of wind. If you are racing
under a rule that penalizes you for a spinnaker, the 17 will beat the
spinnaker handicap easily if you do your part. Keep the weight forward,
and sit on the lee side in light air to heel the boat. If there is lots
of wind, take off the engine and throw it below, so it will become
ballast. Ditto the anchor, etc.
Maybe Gary Oberbeck in Phoenix can add to this; he's one of the guys who
used to beat me frequently and is very tough in a drifter. He's not as
humble as I am, however.
Hope this helps.
Jerry
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Message 26 of 48

From: "Bill Riker"
Subject: RE: M_Boats: weather helm
Date: 27 Jun 2001 20:26:30 -0400
-----------------------------------

Doug,
My helm is light, too, except when the boat is overpowered and rolls up on
her beam, with the rudder at such an angle that it's efficiency is much
reduced. Actually, on some points of sail in light to moderate air, she
shows a bit of lee helm. Jerry says she needs more weight forward,
equivalent to more centerboard, right? I'll have to try her with reefed jib
and full main this summer.
I took a page from your book on the CBR and rigged remote steering lines.
The immediate causitive factor was an attempt to shield some small part of
my body from the relentless sun. By standing in the companionway (not
really an appropriate term on a 15' boat), I was partly shaded. I found
the steering lines work great in light conditions, and improve the speed a
bit by getting weight forward. A disadvantage is that, in those conditions,
10 to 15 degrees of heel is helpful, but you can't very well get much weight
to leeward.
I could sit on the bridgedeck and make a sandwich, with just an occasional
look about and tug on one line or the other. The new mast bracket made a
good place to attach a small block so the line could be continuous.
Bill Riker
M-15 #184
Storm Petrel
-----Original Message-----
[mailto:owner-montgomery_boats@lists.xmission.com]On Behalf Of Doug
Kelch
Sent: June 25, 2001 10:17 PM
I have less mast rake than Bill Riker and Abby Gura
have on their M15s. I think my helm is gennerally
lighter than thiers but they seem to be a tad faster.
Have you tried raising the CB up 2" at a time to move
the center of lateral resitance aft a little?
Doug
"Seas the Day"
--- Tom Smith wrote:
> I'm sailing in fairly heavy, gusty winds here in
> Idaho these days, and
> finding I'm fighting a good deal of weather helm in
> the process. Mast rake is
> very moderate, but I might be able to move things
> forward a little. Any
> suggestions (besides the obvious...reef sooner)
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Message 27 of 48

From: "Jerry Montgomery"
Subject: Re: M_Boats: Mast Rake (and other dumb questions)
Date: 11 Jul 2001 20:39:21 +0100
-----------------------------------

A comment on your message, Howard. The 17 also benefits from mast rake, as
much as the 15. Also, I would put the forestay (headstay on the 17) in the
forward hole to open up the slot between the main and the jib as much as
possible.
Jerry
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 2:57 AM
>
>
> Dan White wrote:
>
> > See http://www.msog.org/how-to/rigtuning.htm
> >
> > Dan White
> > M17 #316B
> >
>
> I have read Tom's account of how Jerry set up the boat, but "Chukar" is an
> M15, a fractional rig, which I understand needs more rake than the M17, a
> masthead rig. But if I thought I had it about right, I would certainly
follow
> these directions, as it sounds like once you are close, the final tuning
> process is about the same.
>
> I think mine may be more of a technical question, as rake is achieved by
> letting out the forestay. Since mine is maxed out, I'm trying to find out
how
> to physically measure the amount of rake I already have, and if it's
enough.
> Or do I need a longer forestay?
>
> Howard
>
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Message 28 of 48

From: Michael & Lizabeth Towers
Subject: M_Boats: Mast rake and racing ratings
Date: 11 Jul 2001 22:47:46 -0500
-----------------------------------

Mast rake on an M17 isn't something you can measure with a tape. Wait for a
light air day and rake it until you have just a little weather helm. This
assumes you have your jib leads placed properly so the sail luffs evenly
from top to bottom and that your mainsail isn't over or under trimmed.
If your forestay isn't long enough, you can always put a toggle at the top
to add an extra couple of inches (if you have roller furling you should
have one up there anyway). My forestay still needed more length, so I use a
tang at the deck end. A tang is simply a short piece of flat stainless with
holes in it. I use two of them doubled for strength. You can cut them to
whatever length you need--a much cheaper fix than a new forestay.
I do use a tape measure to tune the outer sidestays. I hoist the tape using
the main halyard and measure to each toe rail to get the mast square from
side to side, and once I've got it straight I snug up the stays one turn at
a time on each side until they're fairly tight. Then I snug up the inners
one turn at time until they're slightly less tight than the outers. When
you're sailing with crew, have them drive while you lie on the deck and
sight up the mast. It should be straight from side to side. If it's falling
off to leeward at the top, tighten the outer; if it's bowing to leeward at
the spreaders, tighten the inner. It works for me.
I race my M17 in a few local races each season. We use the Portsmouth
Yardstick ratings put out by the United States Sailing Association. Your
elapsed time is multiplied by 100 and then divided by your boat's handicap.
The handicaps are based on a combination of boat testing and actual race
results. A low handicap indicates a fast boat, a high handicap a slow boat.
The M17' s is 104.3, the M15 has a provisional rating of 108.1 (not enough
reported race results to confirm the rating), and the M23 has a provisional
rating of 94.8. In contrast, the West Wright Potter 15 has a rating of
138.1. You guys had better beat them when you're match racing! Another Lyle
Design, the Balboa 20, has a rating of 104.1, almost identical to the M17.
My 13-year-old son and I are able to race our M17 competitively against
Macgregors, 20'+ O'Days, and a variety of other cabin boats with ratings in
the low 90's. We usually beat them on handicap, and on light air days
sometimes beat them to the finish line. The M17 is easier than most boats
to sail up to its rating in a drifter. We're racing with a 150% genoa on a
CDI furler and no spinnaker (poling the genoa on runs and broad reaches).
If anyone has a spinnaker and pole they're not using, I'm in the market for
one.
Michael Towers
M17 #226 (1976)
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Message 29 of 48

From: "Mark S.Sibille PE"
Subject: Re: M_Boats: Mast Rake (and other dumb questions)
Date: 12 Jul 2001 07:59:44 -0700 (PDT)
-----------------------------------

I'm no boat expert, but since nobody has responded to
how rake results in weather helm, I'll jump in w/ some
of this:
How much rake?
You want some slight weather helm. But,moderation in
all things...
Rake effectively moves the sailplan (center of
effort) aft relative to the center of lateral
resistance (keel, and to some extent the rudder), and
the resulting "windvane effect" tends to point the bow
into the wind.
If you have excessive rake, not only will you tire
of having to haul on the tiller, but the increased
angle of attack required for the rudder also increases
the drag. So, you're losing efficiency.
Since even in production boats, each boat is
different, the actual measurement of rake is probably
useful mostly as a starting point from which you might
fine tune. If you have all other rigging and
equipment as you want it (refer to previous msgs that
pointed out other variables that affect weather/lee
helm), then once you achieve the amount of weather
helm desired, I'd leave the rake at that point. No
sense in adding excessive weather helm just to say you
have X inches of mast rake.
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Message 30 of 48

From: mikit
Subject: Re: M_Boats: Mast Rake (and other dumb questions)
Date: 13 Jul 2001 02:06:55 -0700
-----------------------------------

--============_-1217107259==_ma============
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
Just some thoughts on mast rake and tuning in general. I have
experimented with rake ranging from plum to about a foot out at the
top. My preference currently is approximately 3" to 6" inches out at
the top. I haven't actually measured it, I suppose I could hang a
plum bob on my topping lift to check it out, anyway I arrived at the
current settings by trial and error. The characteristics of this
setting in combination with the sails specific to our boat may not be
what others would strive for and may not be the most efficient for a
racer but to us it feels right at this point in our sailing
experience. The results, neutral helm (not lee helm) up to about 2.5
knots at which point slight weather helm gradually starts to
increase. The weather helm at 4.5 knots + is a confident tug but not
great enough to cause significant drag on the rudder and is not as
great as it was with the sails that were original to the boat. With
the original main and 130% genoa, the weather helm was significantly
greater at comparable speeds. Of course I wasn't paying attention to
mast rake or tuning at the time. We are now set up with a 150 genoa
combined with a main by North Sails with a larger roach (more sail
area) than the original Kern main. The boat just feels right and
balanced to us in this configuration. If we furl (reef) the genoa,
weather helm increases. I have read that you should strive for a bit
of weather helm from the get go but my thought is why weather helm at
1 or 2 knots, who needs the extra drag on the rudder at that speed?
Since the sails specific to different boats vary and, in my opinion,
it is necessary to tune the rigging to the sails, it would be hard to
give an exact number of inches of rake that would work for every boat
or to everyone's preference. Just pick a point and experiment.
As for the shrouds, we adjusted snug by feel but not fiddle string
tight. The lee side definitely slacks off on a close haul but
sighting up the mast, it seems to remain straight to my eye. Since
we use a furling unit we keep the forestay fairly tight adjusting
with the backstay. The whole process is a learning experience for us
and the experimentation is interesting and fun.
Mike
M17-369
>These may be a Jerry/Bob/Kern questions, but I'm sure there are others
>with some answers too:
>
>Was wondering how much rake the M17 is designed for, and how do you know
>how much you have? I ask because the last few times I have sailed, I
>don't notice much weather helm. In fact, If I drop the tiller, she falls
>off rather than heading up. Not sure if this is due to my tuning, or the
>fact that the rudder bends some to starboard (about an inch from the
>transom to the bottom of the rudder).
>
>I have been fooling with the tuning on the rig. I have the forestay
>extended as far as it will go, and when eyeballed from the side, the
>mast still looks to be standing straight up, if not leaning forward
>some. Granted, there may be an optical illusion with the cabin deck
>sloping forward, but the rake, if any, is not noticeable. One idea I
>have heard is to use the main halyard as a plumb bob, and if it hangs
>aft, away from the mast, the mast is raked. But that would only work if
>the boat is sitting level. I can use my small bubble level to do that,
>but where would level be on the boat? The v-berth at the mast support
>post? Or is there a better way?
>
>Is there a designed length of the forestay? Perhaps the last time it was
>replaced it got shorted? In case it matters, the forestay is attached to
>the foward most tack point of three on the forestay fitting.
>
>And why I am at it, we know that increasing the rake will increase
>weather helm and balance? How does that work? I can see that if the boom
>were fixed on a horizontal plane, raking the mast could lengthen the
>luff, and possibly add more draft, but since the boom isn't fixed,
>sheeting it in would only change the angle of the sail on a vertical
>plane. I can't see that the balance of the sail plan is that critical
>where rake would shift the center of lateral resistance aft enough to
>matter.
>
>Also, I have heard conflicting ideas on the tuning of the shrouds and
>lower stays. One says to tension them just a little, so that on a tack,
>the leeward shroud and stay are a little slack and floppy. The other
>idea is that they should be pre-tensioned much more than that to prevent
>damage to the mast when really put under load, and even when heeled
>over, the leeward stays should still look tight. Which would you
>suggest?
>
>And is it desireable or even possible to put some bend in the upper
>section of the mast? I notice that the tops of my chainplates on the
>sides of the cabin are bent forward slightly, which I thought might have
>been due to bending them while raising or lowering the mast, but upon
>closer evaluation, the plates are actually mounted aft of the mast a few
>inches, and with the bends in place, point straight to the mast
>terminals for the stays and shrouds. They would not follow the bend if
>the mast were raked, and or the mast bent aft above the spreaders by the
>shrouds.
>
> The Kern part of the question comes in if sails for the boat are built
>with some or all of these tuning tricks factored in, then you better be
>using the tuning tricks. In my conversation with him about new sails,
>weather helm came up and he mentioned moving the jib leads farther aft
>than the telltails might suggest, plus a bunch of other things, which
>suggests that there are an awful lot of variables to factor in for good
>performance.
>
>Or maybe none of it really matters that much. If so, that's good to know
>too.
>
>I'm going to have a beer and not worry much either way, but there is
>this race coming up.....and I would like to get her as right as
>possible, if it is possible.
>
>Also, if I enter this race, is there an "official" rating for the boat?
>Just in case anyone asks. Somebody won the last race on a handicap, and
>there was some grumbling about where the handicap came from.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Howard
--============_-1217107259==_ma============
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

Re: M_Boats: Mast Rake (and other dumb<br>questions)

Just some thoughts on mast
rake and tuning in general. I have experimented with rake ranging
from plum to about a foot out at the top. My preference currently is
approximately 3" to 6" inches out at the top. I haven't
actually measured it, I suppose I could hang a plum bob on my topping
lift to check it out, anyway I arrived at the current settings by
trial and error.  The characteristics of this setting in
combination with the sails specific to our boat may not be what
others would strive for and may not be the most efficient for a racer
but to us it feels right at this point in our sailing experience. The
results, neutral helm (not lee helm) up to about 2.5 knots at which
point slight weather helm gradually starts to increase. The weather
helm at 4.5 knots + is a confident tug but not great enough to cause
significant drag on the rudder and is not as great as it was with the
sails that were original to the boat. With the original main and 130%
genoa, the weather helm was significantly greater at comparable
speeds. Of course I wasn't paying attention to mast rake or tuning
at the time. We are now set up with a 150 genoa combined with a main
by North Sails with a larger roach (more sail area) than the original
Kern main. The boat just feels right and balanced to us in this
configuration. If we furl (reef) the genoa, weather helm increases. I
have read that you should strive for a bit of weather helm from the
get go but my thought is why weather helm at 1 or 2 knots, who needs
the extra drag on the rudder at that speed?

Since the sails specific to
different boats vary and, in my opinion, it is necessary to tune the
rigging to the sails, it would be hard to give an exact number of
inches of rake that would work for every boat or to everyone's
preference. Just pick a point and experiment.



As for the shrouds, we adjusted snug by feel but not fiddle string
tight.  The lee side definitely slacks off on a close haul but
sighting up the mast, it seems to remain straight to my eye. 
Since we use a furling unit we keep the forestay fairly tight
adjusting with the backstay. The whole process is a learning
experience for us and the experimentation is interesting and fun.

Mike

M17-369








These may be a Jerry/Bob/Kern questions,
but I'm sure there are others

with some answers too:



Was wondering how much rake the M17 is designed for, and how do you
know

how much you have? I ask because the last few times I have sailed,
I

don't notice much weather helm. In fact, If I drop the tiller, she
falls

off rather than heading up. Not sure if this is due to my tuning, or
the

fact that the rudder bends some to starboard (about an inch from
the

transom to the bottom of the rudder).



I have been fooling with the tuning on the rig. I have the
forestay

extended as far as it will go, and when eyeballed from the side,
the

mast still looks to be standing straight up, if not leaning
forward

some. Granted, there may be an optical illusion with the cabin
deck

sloping forward, but the rake, if any, is not noticeable. One idea
I

have heard is to use the main halyard as a plumb bob, and if it
hangs

aft,  away from the mast, the mast is raked. But that would only
work if

the boat is sitting level. I can use my small bubble level to do
that,

but where would level be on the boat? The v-berth at the mast
support

post? Or is there a better way?



Is there a designed length of the forestay? Perhaps the last time it
was

replaced it got shorted? In case it matters, the forestay is attached
to

the foward most tack point of three on the forestay fitting.



And why I am at it, we know that increasing the rake will increase

weather helm and balance? How does that work? I can see that if the
boom

were fixed on a horizontal plane, raking the mast could lengthen
the

luff, and possibly add more draft, but since the boom isn't fixed,

sheeting it in would only change the angle of the sail on a
vertical

plane. I can't see that the balance of the sail plan is that
critical

where rake would shift the center of
lateral resistance aft enough to

matter.



Also, I have heard conflicting ideas on the tuning of the shrouds
and

lower stays. One says to tension them just a little, so that on a
tack,

the leeward shroud and stay are a little slack and floppy. The
other

idea is that they should be pre-tensioned much more than that to
prevent

damage to the mast when really put under load, and even when
heeled

over, the leeward stays should still look tight. Which would you

suggest?



And is it desireable or even possible to put some bend in the
upper

section of the mast? I notice that the tops of my chainplates on
the

sides of the cabin are bent forward slightly, which I thought might
have

been due to bending them while raising or lowering the mast, but
upon

closer evaluation, the plates are actually mounted aft of the mast a
few

inches, and with the bends in place, point straight to the mast

terminals for the stays and shrouds. They would not follow the bend
if

the mast were raked, and or the mast bent aft above the spreaders by
the

shrouds.



 The Kern part of the question comes in if sails for the boat
are built

with some or all of these tuning tricks factored in, then you better
be

using the tuning tricks. In my conversation with him about new
sails,

weather helm came up and he mentioned moving the jib leads farther
aft

than the telltails might suggest, plus a bunch of other things,
which

suggests that there are an awful lot of variables to factor in for
good

performance.



Or maybe none of it really matters that much. If so, that's good to
know

too.



I'm going to have a beer and not worry much either way, but there
is

this race coming up.....and I would like to get her as right as

possible, if it is possible.



Also, if I enter this race, is there an "official" rating
for the boat?

Just in case anyone asks. Somebody won the last race on a handicap,
and

there was some grumbling about where the handicap came from.



Thanks,



Howard





--============_-1217107259==_ma============--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Message 31 of 48

From: Doug King
Subject: M_Boats: Lemme knoe...
Date: 03 Aug 2001 00:37:06 -0400
-----------------------------------

--=====================_2508767==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I put up a compilation of the mast rake/weather helm discussion under
How-To/Specs->Tuning the Rig. Hope it's OK, feel free to lemme knoe if there
are any errors.
If you NW M-owners want to send planning details to me about a rendezvous, I'll
put it up on the MSOG. (See the Chesapeake Bay Rendezvous info). Easiest to
just coordinate with one person, so lemme knoe who's organizing and we'll get
info up.
Doug

Doug King
M-17 #404 "Vixen"
Montgomery Sailboats Owners Group Web site: http://msog.org
Email: mailto:msog@msog.org
--=====================_2508767==_.ALT
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"



I put up a compilation of the mast rake/weather helm
discussion under How-To/Specs->Tuning the Rig. Hope it's OK, feel free
to lemme knoe if there are any errors.



If you NW M-owners want to send planning details to me about a
rendezvous, I'll put it up on the MSOG. (See the Chesapeake Bay
Rendezvous info). Easiest to just coordinate with one person, so lemme
knoe who's organizing and we'll get info up.



Doug





 



------------------------------------------

Doug King

M-17 #404 "Vixen"



Montgomery Sailboats Owners Group Web site:
http://msog.org

Email:
mailto:msog@msog.org
--=====================_2508767==_.ALT--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Message 32 of 48

From: M_Boats (Jerry Mongomery)
Subject: M_Boats: New Owner: ^Chimpanzee^
Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 10:09:30 -0800
-----------------------------------

References: <018001c1b959$0d121000$6401a8c0@john>
Message-ID: <001b01c1b970$94a806c0$cfe2de9e@jerry>
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C1B92D.85922960
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=^iso-8859-1^
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi John- I'd also like to welcome you to the group; I know at least some =
of your kayaks as there are several around here (Sacramento) that have =
been home built. Great-looking boats.
You are in luck with the Windmill jibs. I know the Windmill altho there =
are few on the West Coast; it's a lighter, narrower Snipe with a little =
more sail area if my memory serves me. Isn't the designer's name Scott =
Mills? Almost an ^Oldie-but-Goodie at this point. I don't know if the =
Windmill has a chute, but if it does it should also work. I used an old =
470 chute for years on a 15.
Sail the 15 with the mast raked back enough to load up the helm a =
little.
Regards,
Jerry=20
----- Original Message -----=20

Go TopGo Bottom

Message 33 of 48

From: John Harris=20
Subject: M_Boats: New Owner: ^Chimpanzee^

-----------------------------------

To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com=20
Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2002 7:21 AM
To all, many thanks for your enthusiastic welcome. Twelve years ago I =
joined the Windmill Class (15'6^ racing sloop) largely on the strength =
of the friendly people in the class. Studying the class membership is a =
good way to choose a boat. I quickly discovered that hanging out with =
Windmill owners was as much fun as sailing the sporty Windmill; they =
are a good sort. Seems that way with the Montgomery folk, as well: I =
lurked on your site for some months before buying a boat. I'm also =
pleased to note that the Windmill and M-15 jibs are exactly the same =
dimensions, so I have a basement full of ex-racing jibs, dacron still =
crackly, from which to choose.
To answer a few questions:
>>
>How did you trace the list of owners? I would like to know where my =
M-17 has=20
been since it left the factory.
>
I wish I could claim elaborate gumshoe work. But the truth is that =
among #412's papers was a ^statement of origin,^ with room for second, =
third, and fourth assignments. Each new owner had dutifully recorded =
their name. =20
>
>John, I'd be curious to know what your deck plan is and what hardware =
you are thinking of using...a dingy racer's perspective would be =
interesting...
>>
I'll snap some digital photos when I get to that stage. =20
Cheers,
John=20
Chesapeake Light Craft
The Best Boats You Can Build
http://www.clcboats.com
------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C1B92D.85922960
Content-Type: text/html;
charset=^iso-8859-1^
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


charset=3Diso-8859-1^>




Hi John- I'd also like to welcome you =
to the group;=20
I know at least some of your kayaks as there are several around here=20
(Sacramento) that have been home built.  Great-looking =
boats.

 

You are in luck with the Windmill =
jibs.  I=20
know the Windmill altho there are few on the West Coast; it's a lighter, =
narrower Snipe with a little more sail area if my memory serves =
me. Isn't=20
the designer's name Scott Mills?   Almost an ^Oldie-but-Goodie =
at this=20
point.  I don't know if the Windmill has a chute, but if it does it =
should=20
also work.  I used an old 470 chute for years on a 15.

 

Sail the 15 with the mast raked back =
enough to load=20
up the helm a little.

 

Regards,

 

Jerry

 

----- Original Message -----

style=3D^PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px^>
style=3D^BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black^>From:=20
John =
Harris=20

To: title=3Dmontgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com=20
=
href=3D^mailto:montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com^>montgomery_boats@ma=
ilman.xmission.com=20

Sent: Tuesday, February 19, =
2002 7:21=20
AM

Subject: M_Boats: New Owner:=20
^Chimpanzee^




To all, many thanks for your =
enthusiastic=20
welcome.  Twelve years ago I joined the Windmill Class (15'6^ =
racing=20
sloop) largely on the strength of the friendly people in the =
class. =20
Studying the class membership is a good way to choose a boat.  I =
quickly=20
discovered that hanging out with Windmill owners was as much fun as =
sailing=20
the sporty Windmill;  they are a good sort.  Seems that way =
with the=20
Montgomery folk, as well:  I lurked on your site for some months =
before=20
buying a boat.  I'm also pleased to note that the Windmill and =
M-15 jibs=20
are exactly the same dimensions, so I have a basement full of =
ex-racing jibs,=20
dacron still crackly, from which to choose.

 

To answer a few =
questions:

 

>>

>How did you trace the list of =
owners? I would=20
like to know where my M-17 has
been since it left the=20
factory.

>

 

I wish I could claim elaborate =
gumshoe=20
work.  But the truth is that among #412's papers was a ^statement =
of=20
origin,^ with room for second, third, and fourth assignments.  =
Each new=20
owner had dutifully recorded their name. 

 

Schoolbook^> class=3D585260401-19022002>>
>John, I'd be curious to know =
what your=20
deck plan is and what hardware you are thinking of using...a dingy =
racer's=20
perspective would be interesting...

Schoolbook^> class=3D585260401-19022002>>>

Schoolbook^> class=3D585260401-19022002> 

Schoolbook^> class=3D585260401-19022002>I'll snap some digital photos when I get to =
that=20
stage. 


Cheers,
John

 

Chesapeake Light Craft
The Best =
Boats You Can=20
Build
=
href=3D^http://www.clcboats.com^>http://www.clcboats.com
=
 

 

------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C1B92D.85922960--
From montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Tue Feb 19 19:29:39 2002

Go TopGo Bottom

Message 34 of 48

From: M_Boats (John Harris)
Subject: M_Boats: New Owner: ^Chimpanzee^
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 11:07:23 -0500
-----------------------------------

References: <018001c1b959$0d121000$6401a8c0@john> <001b01c1b970$94a806c0$cfe2de9e@jerry>
Message-ID: <005b01c1c13b$2c584c60$6401a8c0@john>
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_0058_01C1C111.43791CA0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=^iso-8859-1^
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>
>>Hi John- I'd also like to welcome you to the group; I know at least =
some of your kayaks as there are several around here (Sacramento) that =
have been home built. Great-looking boats.
>>
=20
Many thanks for the kind words, Jerry, and everyone else. I have a =
wealth of small boats, but they all need work or tinkering in one way or =
the other. I suspect I'll use the M-15 more than any other, because =
it'll be low maintenance and poised on its trailer, ready to sail. =20
>
>You are in luck with the Windmill jibs. I know the Windmill altho =
there are few on the West Coast; it's a lighter, narrower Snipe with a =
little more sail area if my memory serves me. Isn't the designer's name =
Scott Mills? =20
>>
The Windmill's rig is identical to the Snipe, but although it's the =
same length overall the Windmill weighs less than half what a Snipe =
does. Planes like a bobsled. Clark Mills was the designer of the =
Windmill. He's most famous for the Optimist Pram, but he also designed =
some of the Com-Pac line of pocket cruisers. He died just two months =
ago, alas.
>I don't know if the Windmill has a chute, but if it does it should =
also work. I used an old 470 chute >for years on a 15.
Like the Snipe, the Windmill is a non-spinnaker class. Always one of =
the attractions to me.
=20
>
>Sail the 15 with the mast raked back enough to load up the helm a =
little.
>
Good to know. I'll tinker with it. My new mainsail is about 5% =
larger than the stock M-15 sail. I had them put in a full-batten up =
top, like a 470 (or Potter 15, for that matter). That should help a bit =
in light air. I also had them put in two reef points, as it's slow, =
unfun, and unseamanlike to sail on your ear.
Cheers,
John=20
Chesapeake Light Craft
The Best Boats You Can Build
http://www.clcboats.com
------=_NextPart_000_0058_01C1C111.43791CA0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset=^iso-8859-1^
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


http-equiv=3DContent-Type>




 

style=3D^BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px^>
 



>>

>>Hi John- I'd also like to =
welcome you to=20
the group; I know at least some of your kayaks as there are several =
around=20
here (Sacramento) that have been home built.  Great-looking=20
boats.

>>

 

Many thanks for the kind words, =
Jerry, and=20
everyone else.  I have a wealth of small boats, but they all need =
work or=20
tinkering in one way or the other.  I suspect I'll use the M-15 =
more than=20
any other, because it'll be low maintenance and poised on its trailer, =
ready=20
to sail. 

 

 

>
>You are in luck with the =
Windmill=20
jibs.  I know the Windmill altho there are few on the West Coast; =
it's a=20
lighter, narrower Snipe with a little more sail area if my memory =
serves=20
me. Isn't the designer's name Scott =
Mills?   

>>

 

 

The Windmill's rig is identical to =
the Snipe, but=20
although it's the same length overall the Windmill weighs less than =
half what=20
a Snipe does.  Planes like a bobsled.  Clark Mills was the =
designer=20
of the Windmill.  He's most famous for the Optimist Pram, but he =
also=20
designed some of the Com-Pac line of pocket cruisers.  He died =
just two=20
months ago, alas.

 

>I don't know if the Windmill has =
a chute, but=20
if it does it should also work.  I used an old 470 chute >for =
years on=20
a 15.

 

Like the Snipe, the Windmill is a =
non-spinnaker=20
class.  Always one of the attractions to me.

 

>

>Sail the 15 with the mast raked =
back enough=20
to load up the helm a little.

>

 

Good to know.  I'll tinker with =
it.  My=20
new mainsail is about 5% larger than the stock M-15 sail.  I had =
them put=20
in a full-batten up top, like a 470 (or Potter 15, for that =
matter). =20
That should help a bit in light air.  I also had them put in two =
reef=20
points, as it's slow, unfun, and unseamanlike to sail on your=20
ear.

 


------=_NextPart_000_0058_01C1C111.43791CA0--
From montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Fri Mar 1 16:07:00 2002

Go TopGo Bottom

Message 35 of 48

From: M_Boats (wayne yeargain)
Subject: M_Boats: M17 Performance
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 22:11:40 -0500
-----------------------------------

References: <00d001c1eb3b$0884c000$0cfd010a@ajrogers>
Message-ID: <006501c1ed99$41b5d7a0$cecddacf@home>
I think you'll find weather or lee helm conditions are in direct correlation
to mast rake which is a adjustable feature, push it foward & you get more
lee helm, pull it back results in weather helm. It's a function of
unbalanced forces acting between your keel and your sails pivoting your boat
around it's central axis. similar to a weather vane.
----- Original Message -----

Go TopGo Bottom

Message 36 of 48

From: M_Boats (dik lang)
Subject: M_Boats: rigging tension
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 15:09:15 -0700
-----------------------------------

Message-ID:
I am a new montgomery 17 owner and have been reading along about mast rake
and rigging tension. No one seems to put a numeric value on the shroud
tension. When I got my 1983-17 the tension was very slack, it did not
register on a LOOS tension gauge. What might be a good starting setting? I
have heard references regarding that it will sail fine with loose rigging. I
used to have a cal 20, and was always told that the rigging tension was an
important factor. Is a rigging tension of 10 percent of the breaking
strength o.k.?
_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
From montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com Thu Jul 11 16:13:05 2002

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Message 37 of 48

From: (Jeff Flancer)
Subject: M_Boats: (no subject)
Date: Fri Aug 23 00:56:15 2002
-----------------------------------

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C249FC.D4055260
charset="iso-8859-1"
Hello Everybody, =20
My name is Jeff. I live in sail in Phoenix AZ. I'm 2 days away from =
picking up my M-15 and I am excited. 1982 Hull #203. Mainly I have =
small boat experience and daysail w/ a Barnett 1400(which is for sale by =
the way, excellent shape, asking $1300). I had a 1996 West Wight Potter =
that I sailed w/ for 2 yrs. A great little boat, I enjoyed it very much. =
I picked a M-boat because I knew it was for sale at the Sailboat shop =
at the lake. I also hope I can sail slightly faster w/ the M-15 than w/ =
the Potter. I always came in last during races(my fault, probably not =
the boats). I just took my bareboat chartering course in Ca., so I hope =
to charter in the future but for now want a day sailer that can be =
handled easily on & off the water. I want to get my wife & 2 little boys =
out there sailing after I "break in" the boat for myself (debug).
Does anyone have any thoughts on the following for the M-15.
Bimini top?
Which outboard, size & type shaft?
Anchoring equipment & storage?
Whats the Mast rake?
Oars?
Thoughts on putting reef points on the jib?
Looking forward to hearing back from anyone. Thanks-JF
------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C249FC.D4055260
charset="iso-8859-1"


http-equiv=3DContent-Type>




Hello Everybody, 

My name is Jeff. I live in sail in Phoenix AZ. I'm 2 =
days away=20
from picking up my M-15 and I am excited.  1982 Hull #203. Mainly I =
have=20
small boat experience and daysail w/ a Barnett 1400(which is for sale by =
the=20
way, excellent shape, asking $1300).  I had a 1996 West Wight =
Potter that I=20
sailed w/ for 2 yrs. A great little boat, I enjoyed it very much.  =
I picked=20
a M-boat because I knew it was for sale at the Sailboat shop at the =
lake. =20
I also hope I can sail slightly faster w/ the M-15 than w/ the =
Potter.  I=20
always came in last during races(my fault, probably not the =
boats).  I just=20
took my bareboat chartering course in Ca., so I hope to charter in the =
future=20
but for now want a day sailer that can be handled easily on & off =
the water.=20
I want to get my wife & 2 little boys out there sailing after I =
"break in"=20
the boat for myself (debug).

 

Does anyone have any thoughts on the following for =
the=20
M-15.

Bimini top?

Which outboard, size & type shaft?

Anchoring equipment & storage?

Whats the Mast rake?

Oars?

Thoughts on putting reef points on the =
jib?

Looking forward to hearing back from anyone. =20
Thanks-JF

------=_NextPart_000_0015_01C249FC.D4055260--

Go TopGo Bottom

Message 38 of 48

From: (Steve R)
Subject: M_Boats: Welcome Jeff
Date: Fri Aug 23 23:39:18 2002
-----------------------------------

Hi Jeff,
"Jeff Flancer" wrote:
> Does anyone have any thoughts on the following for the M-15.
> Bimini top?
We want one, maybe next year.
> Which outboard, size & type shaft?
Most M-15 people buying a new motor seem to use a Honda 2 hp. From the WWP message boards, that seems to be the choice of the 14/15 models as well. I have the long shaft. There are quite a few short shafts as well. I need to get an adjustable motor mount, but that is another next year project too. My 2001 model will not tilt out of the water without hitting the top on the transom. Some earlier models could be turned sideways and tilted up. Some people have ground down the "tilting latch" so the motor does not tilt to the extreme almost horizontal position, which gets the prop out of the water and gives clearance for the top.
> Anchoring equipment & storage?
So far, I have bought three anchors on e-Bay: a 4 pound and 7 pound Fortress, and an 11 pound Bruce clone. I hope to persuade the admirable to make canvas roll-up pouches for the take-apart Fortresses. I may hang something like a rod holder on the back to hold the Bruce clone.
> Whats the Mast rake?
At the MSOG site:
http://msog.org/how-to/mastrake.cfm
> Oars?
I am interested in oars, but can not figure out where to put the oar locks. All the catalogs seem to carry only brass. Anyone seen a stainless set?
>Thoughts on putting reef points on the jib?
I wish I had enough wind to reef the jib!
Good luck and best wishes with your new M-15.
Steve R.
M-15 #119
Lexington, KY

Go TopGo Bottom

Message 39 of 48

From: Steve R [mailto:stever@mail.saabnet.com]
Subject: M_Boats: Welcome Jeff
Date: Sat Aug 24 00:15:07 2002
-----------------------------------

Steve, have you tried rotating the Honda backwards as you tilt it up? =20
I have to do that to lock my long shaft motor in the up position. I =
described this process a year or two back. You can't tilt the motor up =
from the reverse position, so you have to start it up then rotate it as =
it comes up. Rotate it all the way around backwards and bring it to the =
full tilted position. The latch will either snap in, or you might have =
to nudge it a little. When it catches, rotate the motor sideways (it =
likes to sit on one particular side) and off you go. Reverse procedure =
to put it back down. You might have to adjust the motor right or left =
on the mount to achieve maximum clearance. =20
I think there are mounts out there of varying thicknesses, in which case =
this little maneuver might not work. =20
The business end of my Honda trails in the water a bit on a starboard =
tack, but is clear on a port tack. I've successfully avoided messing =
around with an adjustable mount using this tactic. =20
Tom Smith & Jane Van Winkle
Sandpoint, Idaho
M15-345, Chukar
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, August 23, 2002 3:39 PM
To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com
Hi Jeff,
"Jeff Flancer" wrote:
> Does anyone have any thoughts on the following for the M-15.
> Bimini top?
We want one, maybe next year.
> Which outboard, size & type shaft?
Most M-15 people buying a new motor seem to use a Honda 2 hp. From the =
WWP message boards, that seems to be the choice of the 14/15 models as =
well. I have the long shaft. There are quite a few short shafts as =
well. I need to get an adjustable motor mount, but that is another next =
year project too. My 2001 model will not tilt out of the water without =
hitting the top on the transom. Some earlier models could be turned =
sideways and tilted up. Some people have ground down the "tilting =
latch" so the motor does not tilt to the extreme almost horizontal =
position, which gets the prop out of the water and gives clearance for =
the top.
> Anchoring equipment & storage?
So far, I have bought three anchors on e-Bay: a 4 pound and 7 pound =
Fortress, and an 11 pound Bruce clone. I hope to persuade the admirable =
to make canvas roll-up pouches for the take-apart Fortresses. I may =
hang something like a rod holder on the back to hold the Bruce clone.
> Whats the Mast rake?
At the MSOG site:
http://msog.org/how-to/mastrake.cfm
> Oars?
I am interested in oars, but can not figure out where to put the oar =
locks. All the catalogs seem to carry only brass. Anyone seen a =
stainless set?
>Thoughts on putting reef points on the jib?
I wish I had enough wind to reef the jib!
Good luck and best wishes with your new M-15.
Steve R.
M-15 #119
Lexington, KY
_______________________________________________
http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats

Go TopGo Bottom

Message 40 of 48

From: (Bob Olson)
Subject: M_Boats: (no subject)
Date: Sat Aug 24 03:33:16 2002
-----------------------------------

> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
--MS_Mac_OE_3112975997_367548_MIME_Part
Rest assured Jeff, you'll be sailing a lot faster and pointing a lot higher
with your Montgomery than with the Potter -- unless it was a Potter 19. I've
sailed with the NW Potter group and the Potter 15's are no match for a M-15.
The Potter 19 is faster than an M-15. Wonder how a M-17 does against a P-19?
Anyone know?
Bob Olson
Previous M-15 owner and needing a bigger sailboat again.
Walker Bay 10 "Hardly Sailing"
on 8/22/02 4:56 PM, Jeff Flancer at jefftuni@earthlink.net wrote:
Hello Everybody,
My name is Jeff. I live in sail in Phoenix AZ. I'm 2 days away from picking
up my M-15 and I am excited. 1982 Hull #203. Mainly I have small boat
experience and daysail w/ a Barnett 1400(which is for sale by the way,
excellent shape, asking $1300). I had a 1996 West Wight Potter that I
sailed w/ for 2 yrs. A great little boat, I enjoyed it very much. I picked
a M-boat because I knew it was for sale at the Sailboat shop at the lake. I
also hope I can sail slightly faster w/ the M-15 than w/ the Potter. I
always came in last during races(my fault, probably not the boats). I just
took my bareboat chartering course in Ca., so I hope to charter in the
future but for now want a day sailer that can be handled easily on & off the
water. I want to get my wife & 2 little boys out there sailing after I
"break in" the boat for myself (debug).

Does anyone have any thoughts on the following for the M-15.
Bimini top?
Which outboard, size & type shaft?
Anchoring equipment & storage?
Whats the Mast rake?
Oars?
Thoughts on putting reef points on the jib?
Looking forward to hearing back from anyone. Thanks-JF
--MS_Mac_OE_3112975997_367548_MIME_Part


Re: M_Boats: (no subject)


Rest assured Jeff, you'll be sailing a lot faster and pointing a lot higher=
with your Montgomery than with the Potter -- unless it was a Potter 19. I'v=
e sailed with the NW Potter group and the Potter 15's are no match for a M-1=
5. The Potter 19 is faster than an M-15. Wonder how a M-17 does against a P-=
19? Anyone know?



Bob Olson

Previous M-15 owner and needing a bigger sailboat again.

Walker Bay 10 "Hardly Sailing"







on 8/22/02 4:56 PM, Jeff Flancer at jefftuni@earthlink.net wrote:



Hello Everybody,  

My name is Jeff. I live in sail in Phoenix AZ. I'm 2 days away from picking=
up my M-15 and I am excited.  1982 Hull #203. Mainly I have small boat=
experience and daysail w/ a Barnett 1400(which is for sale by the way, exce=
llent shape, asking $1300).  I had a 1996 West Wight Potter that I sail=
ed w/ for 2 yrs. A great little boat, I enjoyed it very much.  I picked=
a M-boat because I knew it was for sale at the Sailboat shop at the lake. &=
nbsp;I also hope I can sail slightly faster w/ the M-15 than w/ the Potter. =
 I always came in last during races(my fault, probably not the boats). =
 I just took my bareboat chartering course in Ca., so I hope to charter=
in the future but for now want a day sailer that can be handled easily on &=
amp; off the water. I want to get my wife & 2 little boys out there sail=
ing after I "break in" the boat for myself (debug).

Does anyone have any thoughts on the following for the M-15.=


Bimini top?

Which outboard, size & type shaft?

Anchoring equipment & storage?

Whats the Mast rake?

Oars?

Thoughts on putting reef points on the jib?

Looking forward to hearing back from anyone.  Thanks-JF







--MS_Mac_OE_3112975997_367548_MIME_Part--

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Message 41 of 48

From: (Steve R)
Subject: M_Boats: tilting up the Honda on the stock mount
Date: Sat Aug 24 14:58:35 2002
-----------------------------------

Hi Tom,
I do not recall trying it with the motor in the fully reversed position. I know I have not tried unclamping the motor and shifting it side to side. Between those two techniques I may be able to get it out of the water.
I will give it another try tomorrow and let everyone know.
Thanks,
Steve R.
M-15 #119
Lexington, KY
--- "Smith, Tom" wrote:
>Steve, have you tried rotating the Honda backwards as you tilt it up?=20=20
>
>I have to do that to lock my long shaft motor in the up position. I descri=
>bed this process a year or two back. You can't tilt the motor up from the =
>reverse position, so you have to start it up then rotate it as it comes up.=
> Rotate it all the way around backwards and bring it to the full tilted po=
>sition. The latch will either snap in, or you might have to nudge it a lit=
>tle. When it catches, rotate the motor sideways (it likes to sit on one pa=
>rticular side) and off you go. Reverse procedure to put it back down. You=
> might have to adjust the motor right or left on the mount to achieve maxim=
>um clearance.=20=20
>
>I think there are mounts out there of varying thicknesses, in which case th=
>is little maneuver might not work.=20=20
>
>The business end of my Honda trails in the water a bit on a starboard tack,=
> but is clear on a port tack. I've successfully avoided messing around wit=
>h an adjustable mount using this tactic.=20=20
>
>Tom Smith & Jane Van Winkle
>Sandpoint, Idaho
>M15-345, Chukar
>
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Steve R [mailto:stever@mail.saabnet.com]
>Sent: Friday, August 23, 2002 3:39 PM
>To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com
>Subject: M_Boats: Welcome Jeff
>
>
>Hi Jeff,
>
> "Jeff Flancer" wrote:
>
>> Does anyone have any thoughts on the following for the M-15.
>
>> Bimini top?
>
>We want one, maybe next year.
>
>> Which outboard, size & type shaft?
>
>Most M-15 people buying a new motor seem to use a Honda 2 hp. From the WWP=
> message boards, that seems to be the choice of the 14/15 models as well. =
>I have the long shaft. There are quite a few short shafts as well. I need=
> to get an adjustable motor mount, but that is another next year project to=
>o. My 2001 model will not tilt out of the water without hitting the top on=
> the transom. Some earlier models could be turned sideways and tilted up. =
> Some people have ground down the "tilting latch" so the motor does not til=
>t to the extreme almost horizontal position, which gets the prop out of the=
> water and gives clearance for the top.
>
>> Anchoring equipment & storage?
>
>So far, I have bought three anchors on e-Bay: a 4 pound and 7 pound Fortres=
>s, and an 11 pound Bruce clone. I hope to persuade the admirable to make c=
>anvas roll-up pouches for the take-apart Fortresses. I may hang something =
>like a rod holder on the back to hold the Bruce clone.
>
>> Whats the Mast rake?
>
>At the MSOG site:
>
>http://msog.org/how-to/mastrake.cfm
>
>> Oars?
>
>I am interested in oars, but can not figure out where to put the oar locks.=
> All the catalogs seem to carry only brass. Anyone seen a stainless set?
>
>>Thoughts on putting reef points on the jib?
>
>I wish I had enough wind to reef the jib!
>
>Good luck and best wishes with your new M-15.
>
>Steve R.
>M-15 #119
>Lexington, KY
>
>_______________________________________________
>http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
>
>_______________________________________________
>http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats

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Message 42 of 48

From: Steve R [mailto:stever@mail.saabnet.com]
Subject: RE: M_Boats: tilting up the Honda on the stock mount
Date: Mon Aug 26 16:30:55 2002
-----------------------------------

You may have to toy with it for a bit to break the code Steve, but it =
works for me. Again, someone said once that the thickness of the stock =
mounts has varied over the years, and this is a game of centimeters so =
every little bit of clearance helps. Good luck. T
Tom Smith & Jane Van Winkle
Sandpoint, Idaho
M15-345, Chukar
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2002 6:59 AM
To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com
Hi Tom,
I do not recall trying it with the motor in the fully reversed position. =
I know I have not tried unclamping the motor and shifting it side to =
side. Between those two techniques I may be able to get it out of the =
water.
I will give it another try tomorrow and let everyone know.
Thanks,
Steve R.
M-15 #119
Lexington, KY
--- "Smith, Tom" wrote:
>Steve, have you tried rotating the Honda backwards as you tilt it =
up?=3D20=3D20
>
>I have to do that to lock my long shaft motor in the up position. I =
descri=3D
>bed this process a year or two back. You can't tilt the motor up from =
the =3D
>reverse position, so you have to start it up then rotate it as it comes =
up.=3D
> Rotate it all the way around backwards and bring it to the full =
tilted po=3D
>sition. The latch will either snap in, or you might have to nudge it a =
lit=3D
>tle. When it catches, rotate the motor sideways (it likes to sit on =
one pa=3D
>rticular side) and off you go. Reverse procedure to put it back down. =
You=3D
> might have to adjust the motor right or left on the mount to achieve =
maxim=3D
>um clearance.=3D20=3D20
>
>I think there are mounts out there of varying thicknesses, in which =
case th=3D
>is little maneuver might not work.=3D20=3D20
>
>The business end of my Honda trails in the water a bit on a starboard =
tack,=3D
> but is clear on a port tack. I've successfully avoided messing around =
wit=3D
>h an adjustable mount using this tactic.=3D20=3D20
>
>Tom Smith & Jane Van Winkle
>Sandpoint, Idaho
>M15-345, Chukar
>
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Steve R [mailto:stever@mail.saabnet.com]
>Sent: Friday, August 23, 2002 3:39 PM
>To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com
>Subject: M_Boats: Welcome Jeff
>
>
>Hi Jeff,
>
> "Jeff Flancer" wrote:
>
>> Does anyone have any thoughts on the following for the M-15.
>
>> Bimini top?
>
>We want one, maybe next year.
>
>> Which outboard, size & type shaft?
>
>Most M-15 people buying a new motor seem to use a Honda 2 hp. From the =
WWP=3D
> message boards, that seems to be the choice of the 14/15 models as =
well. =3D
>I have the long shaft. There are quite a few short shafts as well. I =
need=3D
> to get an adjustable motor mount, but that is another next year =
project to=3D
>o. My 2001 model will not tilt out of the water without hitting the =
top on=3D
> the transom. Some earlier models could be turned sideways and tilted =
up. =3D
> Some people have ground down the "tilting latch" so the motor does not =
til=3D
>t to the extreme almost horizontal position, which gets the prop out of =
the=3D
> water and gives clearance for the top.
>
>> Anchoring equipment & storage?
>
>So far, I have bought three anchors on e-Bay: a 4 pound and 7 pound =
Fortres=3D
>s, and an 11 pound Bruce clone. I hope to persuade the admirable to =
make c=3D
>anvas roll-up pouches for the take-apart Fortresses. I may hang =
something =3D
>like a rod holder on the back to hold the Bruce clone.
>
>> Whats the Mast rake?
>
>At the MSOG site:
>
>http://msog.org/how-to/mastrake.cfm
>
>> Oars?
>
>I am interested in oars, but can not figure out where to put the oar =
locks.=3D
> All the catalogs seem to carry only brass. Anyone seen a stainless =
set?
>
>>Thoughts on putting reef points on the jib?
>
>I wish I had enough wind to reef the jib!
>
>Good luck and best wishes with your new M-15.
>
>Steve R.
>M-15 #119
>Lexington, KY
>
>_______________________________________________
>http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
>
>_______________________________________________
>http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
_______________________________________________
http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats

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Message 43 of 48

From: "Honshells"
Subject: M_Boats: Center of Effort?
Date: Sun Feb 16 13:12:48 2003
-----------------------------------

I think moving the CE up 6" or 7" and back 6" or 7" would not produce a
noticable difference in sailing charastics. It would increase the lead (the
distance CE is designed to be behind the center of lateral resistance, to
produce weather helm) by a very small distance but IMHO not enoughto make a
noticable difference in weather helm. Any problems with too much weather or
lee helm can usually
be corrected with mast rake.
Wayne
----- Original Message -----
To:
Sent: Saturday, February 15, 2003 9:05 PM
>
> At the risk of revealing my ignorance, wouldn't making the main shorter,
but wider at the base, lower the
> center of effort and, therefore, increase stability? Is "CE balance"
"Center of Effort balance"? Obviously,
> Jerry designed the M15 rig for optimal performance, but if Steve just
wants more comfortable "messing about in
> [his] boat[ ]", lowering the center of effort might make his boat less
lively, but more seaworthy, mightn't
> it?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bill Riker"
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, February 15, 2003 10:02 AM
> Subject: Mast Base Block for Bimini
>
> Scott,
>
> If Steve is going to recut the main, how about replacing a bit of the lost
> SF with a bit more length along the foot. My mainsail, anyway, leaves
about
> 10" of boom extending beyond the clew. I'm sure the right sail could get
> 6-8" more foot length onto the boom. I keep looking at that spar, just
> knowing it's wishing to meet it's full potential.
>
> But maybe my main is just cut a little short.
>
> Bill Riker
> M-15 #184
> Storm Petrel
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com
> [mailto:montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com]On Behalf Of
> Wilsometer@aol.com
> Sent: February 14, 2003 1:47 PM
> To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com
> Subject: Mast Base Block for Bimini
>
> Steve,
> Another alternative is to recut your main (raise the foot) so as to not
> incur
> cost of new rigging. This would obviously reduce your sail area somewhat,
> and you would not want to take too much or you would risk upsetting the CE
> balance. If you only needed a few inches, it might work.
>
> Scott Grometer
> M15 #478 'bebe'
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
>

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Message 44 of 48

From: DoorAriel@aol.com
Subject: M_Boats: M17 renovations
Date: 18 Sep 1997 21:59:54 -0400 (EDT)
-----------------------------------

Have not received any recommendations regarding mast rake. Guess I'll have
to wing it.
any advice regarding replacement of the plexiglass in the cabin port lights?
Mine are clear plexiglass which has been completely crystalized. Can't see
through them at all. Would like to replace them with tinted lexan. Any
tricks to doing this?
M17 #253
Dick
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Message 45 of 48

From: jerry montgomery
Subject: Re: M_Boats: M17 renovations
Date: 18 Sep 1997 20:05:55 +0000
-----------------------------------

DoorAriel@aol.com wrote:
>
> Have not received any recommendations regarding mast rake. Guess I'll have
> to wing it.
>
> any advice regarding replacement of the plexiglass in the cabin port lights?
> Mine are clear plexiglass which has been completely crystalized. Can't see
> through them at all. Would like to replace them with tinted lexan. Any
> tricks to doing this?
>
> M17 #253
>
> Dick
Hello Dick
If you have too much helm it means that your mast is raked too much,
even tho the 17 sails best upwind with a fair amount; maybe about a
foot, depending on your sails. I always tuned the mast by raking it
back until I had a little helm; just a light "power steering feel.
Is your boat 1982 or newer, with windows with no frames (probably #330
or newer), or one of the older ones with framed windows? If frameless,
I still have a few left. If older, I would get some lexan slightly
larger than the windows, cut it to shape (a router works best) and
replace the old ones. If you do this, contact me and I will give you
some hints.
Jerry
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Message 46 of 48

From: Harvey Wilson <102072.2315@compuserve.com>
Subject: M_Boats: Mast Rake
Date: 20 Sep 1997 23:47:41 -0400
-----------------------------------

Hi Guys..
My boat had quite a bit of mast rake, causing the boom to droop a bit,
and give poor sail shape. I thought it was caused when the forestay
slipped out of my grasp, and the mast came down in a hurry!!! Mast has a
visible bow in it when the boat's on the trailer.
Since then, I've tightened (shortened) the forestay as much as it will go,
and let the backstay out and equal amount. This straightened the mast up
at least 75% of what it was, and sail shape is much improved. Boom is
almost level if I haul tight on the main halyard . Still need about an inch
shorter forestay.
Harvey/Atl
M-17 Stargazer #294
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Message 47 of 48

From: htmills at bright.net (htmills@bright.net)
Subject: M_Boats: Mongomery sailboats: the irresistible conversation piece
Date: Mon Apr 14 10:13:05 2003
-----------------------------------

yup, I had the same problem yesterday.
----------
> Ditto, guys. I bet there isn't a Montgomery owner on the list who
> doesn't have the same "problem". I was pulling mine out for the season
> Sat. and was sidetracked by a Ranger 20 owner first and then a San Juan
> 21 owner complimenting the boat and asking so many questions that I
> couldn't concentrate on what I was doing. Took twice as long to get the
> mast down and everything all set to trailer. My wife got tired of waiting
> and took a nap in the car. Of course, she's been through that before so
> she knows there's nothing a sailor likes better than showing off their
> boat!
> Larry Yake
> M17, #200
> Tullamore
> On Mon, 23 Sep 2002 02:46:08 -0700 "Bob Campbell"
> writes:
> > John,
> >
> > It's definitely a trend. I can't recall the last time I was at a
> > ramp
> > and didn't have someone come up and admire my 17. In fact, I'm
> > always
> > suspicious of the person who says he/she can set up and launch their
> > M17
> > in 45 minutes. They are obviously adjusting for "show and tell"
> > time.
> > I generally allow 30 minutes for that alone!
> >
> > Last month at the SCA Cruiser Challenge in Monterey, I was setting
> > up
> > Alina while a good friend was setting up his Catalina 16. He is
> > very
> > organized and I was trying to see if I could keep up with him so we
> > could launch at the same time. Alas, a gentleman comes up and
> > begins to
> > inspect Alina. He was absolutely smitten by her and the questions
> > and
> > complements began to flow. As he walked away, having never even
> > acknowledged the presence of the Catalina, my friend quips, "My
> > boat's
> > cute too!" Of course, now my friend has taken a commanding lead and
> > is
> > able to take a break while I finish setting up. Oh the
> > disadvantages of
> > owning a Montgomery!
> >
> > I agree with your theory on wistful big boat owners who upon seeing
> > a
> > Montgomery realize that they are spending gobs of money and missing
> > out
> > on the real joy of sailing. At the Chevy's restaurant guest dock
> > in
> > Alameda, I had a retired gentleman who owns a Nonsuch 30 give me
> > his
> > email address, instructing me to contact him if I ever had thoughts
> > of
> > parting with my beloved Alina. I empathize with big boat owners
> > and
> > can't say that I'm immune to the seduction of big boats either.
> > This
> > past spring I was bitten by the big boat bug, but came to my senses
> > just
> > in the nick of time.
> >
> > Lyle Hess has left us with a very special boat indeed. My respect,
> > admiration, and appreciation for him and his boat grow deeper with
> > every
> > sail.
> >
> > Fair winds,
> >
> > Bob Campbell
> > Montgomery 17 #615 "Alina"
> > di, CA
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com
> > [mailto:montgomery_boats-admin@mailman.xmission.com] On Behalf Of
> > John
> > Fleming
> > Sent: Monday, September 23, 2002 12:46 AM
> > To: montgomery_boats@mailman.xmission.com
> > Subject: M_Boats: Mongomery sailboats: the irresistable
> > conversation
> > piece
> >
> > Well, it's happened twice now, so it's not a real trend yet, but it
> >
> > definitely is something. I've recently started sailing out of
> > Marina
> > del Ray in Los Angeles. At the end of the day, when the boat is
> > back on
> >
> > the trailer and I run it over to the fresh water for a washdown,
> > people
> > come running over to ask what kind of boat it is, it looks very
> > salty,
> > it looks very nice, it looks very big and roomy for a 17-footer,
> > I've
> > never seen one like it before, etc etc etc. The kids are running
> > wild,
> > I'm racing the sunset to get everything buttoned up and put away,
> > and
> > they all want to stand around and talk about the Montgomerys and ply
> > me
> > with compliments and sort of get that puppy-dog look in their eyes,
> >
> > wishing they could be invited aboard and take a look around. They
> > walk
> > right by all the big cool racing trimarans and other trailer sailers
> >
> > without a word or glance and stop at my boat. There must be
> > something
> > friendly and inviting about a Montgomery. One guy today asked "Is
> > that
> > a Nor'Sea?" as an introduction! I had to explain the whole heritage
> >
> > thing, Lyle Hess and his English workboats, the Nor'Sea was designed
> >
> > first, and then came the Montgomery's.
> >
> > The pleasant hazards of owning a Montgomery. Hopefully, once I go
> > there
> >
> > enough, I'll have exhausted the supply of closet Montgomery lovers.
> >
> > Maybe it's just Marina del Ray, so jaded by big-money boats that a
> > view
> > of a Montgomery with young kids running around and having fun takes
> > them
> >
> > back to what sailing's all about. Shackled to their big money pits,
> >
> > they realize you can have just as much fun, maybe more, without
> > exhausting your bank account. "God boys, we wish we were you".
> >
> > Other than that ...
> >
> > It was a good day for sailing. Yesterday was thick and chilly fog
> > all
> > along the coast. About 9PM last night, a warm wind blew in, chased
> > all
> > the fog away, and today was pleasant, sunny, and cloudless. The
> > Admiral's away, but the kids want to do something, so let's go
> > sailing.
> > My 12-yr old son did a good job of helming in and out of the
> > Marina,
> > and out on the ocean when he felt like it. The ocean was relatively
> >
> > calm today, not like some other days, no short-period chop and waves
> >
> > from two directions to make every point of sail a roller-coaster.
> >
> > Even with my blown (I think) mainsail, Star Cross'd can point.
> > Today
> > was a good example of what a Montgomery can do. The higher I
> > pointed,
> > the faster I went. She'd heel over and just rocket away, faster (by
> > my
> > uncalibrated knotmeter) than the 4HP engine can push in calm water.
> >
> > When the kids got tired of too much time spent pinned against the
> > lee
> > cabin sides, I'd just de-power to a broad or beam reach and we'd
> > drop
> > about a knot and just keep on cruising. One close-hauled point of
> > sail
> > was directly into the waves, so we did a little up and down pounding
> > but
> >
> > just cut through. The other was cross to the waves, so we'd just
> > roll
> > with it, and occasionally the wind and waves would gang up and push
> > us
> > over further than I cared. But I never felt out of control. It
> > wasn't
> > anything more than the normal 10 knot afternoon breeze we get here
> > every
> >
> > day.
> >
> > Star Cross'd must still be out of rig, though. I would only get
> > good
> > weather helm once we started pointing high. On a beam reach, it'd
> > be
> > lee helm. I guess I need more mast rake.
> >
> > Not many more weekend like this before El Nino hits bringing
> > sub-tropical deluges, the jet stream shifts south connecting us with
> > the
> >
> > North Pacific gales that bring the big northwest waves and too-cool
> >
> > weather to Santa Monica Bay. I very much doubt I can get the whole
> >
> > family out on days like that. They say that December and January
> > are
> > the only bad months here for sailing. We'll see.
> >
> > Happy sailing,
> > John Fleming
> > M-17: "Star Cross'd"
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > http://mailman.xmission.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/montgomery_boats
> >
> >

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Message 48 of 48

From: Egatempo at aol.com (Egatempo@aol.com)
Subject: M_Boats: M17 Rig Tunning
Date: Wed Jun 11 22:59:20 2003
-----------------------------------

Due to my tow vehicle breaking down I am still Boatless. The Texas M17 is now
residing at Lake Carlyle, IL waiting for me to pick her up as soon as I get
wheels.
I will not have the benefit of the PO helping me rig the boat for my test
sail. I am sure I know how to go about getting all the rigging and bits and
pieces together. What I need is some help on the tension required for the stays and
the best sequence to go about tuning the rigging. I had a single backstay and
the M17 has a split backstay is there something special I should be aware of
here. I do have a Loos gauge. How much mast rake should be induced in a M17, I
had approx. 3-4 inches on my Seaward 22 with a 27 foot mast.
Looking forward to getting on the water again. I had intended to make the end
of the CBC, but will have to wait till next year to meet up the M sailors. I
would be glad to trailer to locations on the East Coast to meet and sail with
anyone this season. I do have an invitation to visit Bill Irving and his M17
in Keyport NJ
I have been thinking of leading my Main and Jib halyards internal to the
mast. Has anyone done this on a M17?
George
Boatless (but not for long)
We cannot direct the wind,
but we can adjust our sails.
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Re: M_Boats: More Porta Potti ?
M_Boats: Tuning the M15
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Re: M_Boats: m-15 interior
Re: M_Boats: Tuning an M15
RE: M_Boats: Standing rigging question
Re: M_Boats: Ely, Minnesota
Re: M_Boats: Ely, Minnesota
M_Boats: upwind performance and raking (was Ely, Minnesota)
M_Boats: (no subject)
M_Boats: M-15 Sails and Mast Rake Question
Re: M_Boats: (no subject)
M_Boats: Quote from Jerry Montgomery
RE: M_Boats: Quote from Jerry Montgomery
Re: M_Boats: Quote from Jerry Montgomery
M_Boats: Hey Gang!!!! Lets ALL relax....
M_Boats: Mast rake
Re: M_Boats: Mast rake
M_Boats: Rigging Tip
Re: M_Boats: Update on refit progress
Re: M_Boats: M-17 Roller Furling Jib/Forestay
M_Boats: weather helm
RE: M_Boats: weather helm
Re: M_Boats: weather helm
(Continued next column)		 Re: M_Boats: SCA Results
RE: M_Boats: weather helm
Re: M_Boats: Mast Rake (and other dumb questions)
M_Boats: Mast rake and racing ratings
Re: M_Boats: Mast Rake (and other dumb questions)
Re: M_Boats: Mast Rake (and other dumb questions)
M_Boats: Lemme knoe...
M_Boats: New Owner: ^Chimpanzee^
M_Boats: New Owner: ^Chimpanzee^
M_Boats: New Owner: ^Chimpanzee^
M_Boats: M17 Performance
M_Boats: rigging tension
M_Boats: (no subject)
M_Boats: Welcome Jeff
M_Boats: Welcome Jeff
M_Boats: (no subject)
M_Boats: tilting up the Honda on the stock mount
RE: M_Boats: tilting up the Honda on the stock mount
M_Boats: Center of Effort?
M_Boats: M17 renovations
Re: M_Boats: M17 renovations
M_Boats: Mast Rake
M_Boats: Mongomery sailboats: the irresistible conversation piece
M_Boats: M17 Rig Tunning